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Thread: Scots Grey sword. Restore or leave?

  1. #26
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    Don't feel too bad it's not a 2nd Dragoon. After all, Waterloo was the only time they saw action during the Napoleonic Wars. They literally got their 15 minutes of fame.

    Even regimentally marked swords, regardless of their regiment do not really have hard proof they were used in any action. All is speculation.

    That said, having a spear point on a 96 HC is a better indicator than most that it saw campaigning. It may even have a longer, more notable career in the Penninsula.

    If you like, speculate that it is a 6th Dragoons sword. Who's to say it's not!

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBranner View Post
    Don't feel too bad it's not a 2nd Dragoon. After all, Waterloo was the only time they saw action during the Napoleonic Wars. They literally got their 15 minutes of fame.

    Even regimentally marked swords, regardless of their regiment do not really have hard proof they were used in any action. All is speculation.

    That said, having a spear point on a 96 HC is a better indicator than most that it saw campaigning. It may even have a longer, more notable career in the Penninsula.

    If you like, speculate that it is a 6th Dragoons sword. Who's to say it's not!

    And I'll speculate that my sabre saw action in one of the most celebrated charges in military history. Even if it only lasted 15 minutes.
    Ian

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by WBranner View Post
    Don't feel too bad it's not a 2nd Dragoon. After all, Waterloo was the only time they saw action during the Napoleonic Wars. They literally got their 15 minutes of fame.

    Even regimentally marked swords, regardless of their regiment do not really have hard proof they were used in any action. All is speculation.

    That said, having a spear point on a 96 HC is a better indicator than most that it saw campaigning. It may even have a longer, more notable career in the Penninsula.

    If you like, speculate that it is a 6th Dragoons sword. Who's to say it's not!
    The Inniskillings! yes, I can definitely speculate on that idea...
    Although, I guess they would also have markings like "6th D" on the disk or maybe not?

    Wayne, saw your collection (on your website), very nice!!! I like the idea of describing the background of every sabre, with pictures of the regiments. By the way you have a 96HC Scots Greys too!!! niceee...

    Best regards,
    Fed

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Gibson View Post
    Technically, proofs marks are for gun barrels and were highly regulated. Inspection stamps are found on blades. Although you might be able to call the bend test mark as a kind of proof. I think the crown with an arrow under it shows it was inspected.
    Inspection and View marks as we know them started in around 1788 when instructions were issued for stamps or punches to be made. These were to be issued to Board of Ordnance viewers for military goods. Many of these were for firearms but some were obviously intended to be used on swords as well.
    Joseph Witton was paid for having made viewers marks and the document in the PRO states there were 7 designs, small crown and cross sceptres (For firearms), crown alone and a crown above the figures 1,3,4,6 and 8. the price was 1/6d (one shilling and sixpence) (PRO WO.52/34 p 135)

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJ Ferrero View Post
    The Inniskillings! yes, I can definitely speculate on that idea...
    Although, I guess they would also have markings like "6th D" on the disk or maybe not?

    ...
    I have only seen a very few marked. The 1 & 3 dragoons and the 10 & 14 ld come to mind as well as the 7 Dragoon Guards. Oddly, I've seen more 2d & 14LD than anything. I'm keeping my eye open for a KGL saber if they have them. MDLong had a pistol marked to them once, but I've not seen a saber.

  6. #31
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    Hi Ian, congratulations on the sword!
    Personally, as an ex-archaeologist, I would not mess with the grip. As someone else said, if the grip was missing then I may consider putting one on. But I personally find the idea of covering up part of an artifact, or even worse, changing or damaging an artifact (for example to dismount the hilt) rather horrifying. We know that some medieval and renaissance swords had this done to them in the 19thC, and frankly these artifacts are not viewed as highly as completely untouched originals are. They are also less useful as archaeological artifacts for study.
    But I accept that there are different opinions.

    Regards,
    Matt

  7. #32
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    Hello Matt,
    Thank you for your comments.
    Looking at the grip more closely, someone has replaced the original rivet through the 'ears' with a small nail on either side. Although the grip has been with the sword a long time I'm not 100% sure that is original and the only way of telling is to take the sword apart.
    The tang has also been re-peened, possibly to tighten a loose hilt.
    It would be possible, with much care, to remove the nails, file off the peen and take the hilt apart. The sword could then be lightly cleaned, the grip conserved or replaced (if found to be a later addition) and the sword re-assembled.
    Ian

  8. #33
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    Please could anyone tell me if it would be possible from the rack number 'C No 44' to trace the trooper who carried this sword?
    I have read that Corporal Dickson of the Greys belonged to Captain Vernon's troop (F) and that his number was 57.
    I wondered if there is a publication somewhere that might give me this information.

    Ian

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Knight View Post
    Please could anyone tell me if it would be possible from the rack number 'C No 44' to trace the trooper who carried this sword?
    I have read that Corporal Dickson of the Greys belonged to Captain Vernon's troop (F) and that his number was 57.
    I wondered if there is a publication somewhere that might give me this information.

    Ian
    Ian this may help but no where can I find which of the Troops (A.B.C.D.etc) were the actual 6 troop sent/
    Up to the return of Napoleon from Elba, the Royal North British Dragoons (Scots Greys) had 8 troops, but in 1815 this was increased to 10 troops, the total strength of officers and men in the 10 troops being 946.

    Only 6 troops went to the Netherlands to join Wellington -- 4 remaining at Ipswich. The officers who went with the 6 troops were Lt. Col. James Inglis Hamilton and Majors Isaac Blake Clarke and Thomas Pate Hankin.

    The Adjutant was Lieutenant Henry McMillan;
    Assistant Surgeon James Alexander;
    Veterinary Surgeon John Trigg.

    These Captains commanded the 6 troops
    Edward Cheny,
    James Poole,
    Robert Vernon, (F Troop we know!)
    Charles Barnard,
    Thomas Fenton
    Edward Payne.

    Thomas Reignolds, who was a Brevet Major and was Brigade Major to Sir William Ponsonby.

    The Lieutenants were John Mills, Francis Stupart, George Falconer, James Wemyss, James Carruthers, Archibald Hamilton,Thomas Trotter, James Gape, Charles Wyndham and James Graham.
    There were 3 cornets: Edward Westly, E.C. Knichant and Lemuel Shuldham.

    Maybe The Waterloo Medal Roll would give you the troop letters there?
    Last edited by Robert Wilkinson-Latham; 06-06-2010 at 12:59 PM.

  10. #35
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    Hello Robert,
    Thank you very much for the information. I will look into obtaining the Waterloo medal roll although I am now a little nervous that 'C' troop was left at Ipswich.

    Ian

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Knight View Post
    Hello Robert,
    Thank you very much for the information. I will look into obtaining the Waterloo medal roll although I am now a little nervous that 'C' troop was left at Ipswich.

    Ian
    Medal Roll may not give Troop Initial but probabaly Captain VVVVVVVVV's Troop.
    An email to the regimental Museum may give the initials of troops and if 'there'!

    Museum

    homehq@scotsdg.org.uk

    Curator:
    Lt Col R J Binks

  12. #37
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    Many thanks Robert.
    Ian

  13. #38
    Ian,

    Unfortunately the Waterloo Medal Roll lists the Scots Greys troops just under the name of their Captain rather than giving the troop letters. The Scots Greys muster roll for Waterloo is also given as an Appendix in Dalton's Waterloo Roll Call but again the troops are just listed under their Captain.

    The listings for the 1st Royal Dragoons give both the Captain and the troop designation. The sword below was carried by a trooper in Captain Methuen's D Troop.

    Richard

    PS, I have never understood why Scots Greys swords seem more celebrated that Royal Dragoons' swords (or indeed 6th Inniskilling swords) as they all took part in the famous charge together and the Royals also captured the Eagle of the veteran French 105 regiment of the line (Captain Kennedy Clark and Corporal Stiles)

    PPS, Captain Vernor's name is incorrectly spelt as Captain Vernon in the Army Lists.
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    Last edited by Richard Dellar; 06-07-2010 at 12:15 AM.
    Celeriter nil crede

  14. #39
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    Thanks Richard. I forgot to look in 'The Waterloo Roll Call'.
    I have sent a request for information from the regimental museum as Robert suggested.

    I would be happy with any Waterloo associated sword but they are few and far between and command huge sums of money as you know. I acquired this sword for a reasonable price.

    Ian

  15. #40
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    This thread was my query on trying to determine what troops were at Waterloo. It was inconclusive, but does contain some information.

    http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93434

    Richard: I agree about the facination with the Scots Greys. I think it has something to do with all the paintings. Also, the bearskins & grey horses look so much more snazzy!

  16. #41
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    I have heard back from the regimental museum. Their archivist is going to do some research into which six troops were at Waterloo. I will post his reply as soon as I receive it.

    Ian

  17. #42
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    ... ahhhh, but do we really want to know?

    I'm rooting for C & E.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBranner View Post
    ... ahhhh, but do we really want to know?

    I'm rooting for C & E.
    I don't think I do now. Just in case.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by WBranner View Post
    Richard: I agree about the facination with the Scots Greys. I think it has something to do with all the paintings. Also, the bearskins & grey horses look so much more snazzy!
    Yes, I think Lady Butler is largely to blame

  20. #45
    Swords with Scottish associations also seem to command attention and a premium.

  21. #46
    There was a Serjeant Critchley serving with the 1st Royal Dragoons (Capt Phipps' troop). You would have thought that would give the Royals prominence to some people.
    Celeriter nil crede

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Knight View Post
    I have heard back from the regimental museum. Their archivist is going to do some research into which six troops were at Waterloo. I will post his reply as soon as I receive it.

    Ian
    Ian, this thread has a lot of suspense... We are all eagerly waiting for the archivist to come back with the detailed info!

    Best regards,
    Fed

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Dellar View Post
    There was a Serjeant Critchley serving with the 1st Royal Dragoons (Capt Phipps' troop). You would have thought that would give the Royals prominence to some people.
    Good old Lancashire name

  24. #49
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    I have found out some information about the person who owned the sword at the time of WW1. It was a family piece:

    Corporal Douglas S. Edward of the Royal Engineers 7th Div. no. 161783.
    Apparently he was of Scottish decent.
    He subsequently moved to The Netherlands.

    I have checked 'The Waterloo Roll call' and can only find a George Edwards not Edward.

    Ian

  25. #50
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    Well, you're halfway there.

    How did you come by it?

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