Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 72

Thread: Peace Sword Nakago Photo

  1. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    810
    Along with the aforementioned material cost, I imagine the structural integrity part being a valid concern with modern made, semi-mass-produced tsuka. If done incorrectly, the samegawa won't do diddly-squat as a full wrap. You would then have a thinner piece of wood under a faulty wrap.

    It would take considerably more time and skill to make all of these tsuka with well done full wraps.
    I'm totally super cereal!

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    29
    Yeah I knew it was a materials/cost thing but I was willing to pay extra for a full same wrap, this was a $1500+ semi-custom katana and the person was really talking me out of it saying a full same wrap would actually be weaker than a panel insert again due to more wood+better modern glue.

    First time I have heard anyone say this and wanted opinions 'cause I thought this might turn out to be another "full tang = strongest sword IN THE WORLD" myth as well. I always believed a full tang was better at first until I saw real nihontos and this thread.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank B View Post
    Yeah I knew it was a materials/cost thing but I was willing to pay extra for a full same wrap, this was a $1500+ semi-custom katana and the person was really talking me out of it saying a full same wrap would actually be weaker than a panel insert again due to more wood+better modern glue.

    First time I have heard anyone say this and wanted opinions 'cause I thought this might turn out to be another "full tang = strongest sword IN THE WORLD" myth as well. I always believed a full tang was better at first until I saw real nihontos and this thread.
    Had a busy weekend and have to run out again soon. So this'll be brief...

    Most tsuka fail along the mune. Not at the glue joint but at an angle that lines up with the sides of the mune of the nakago. So think "\ /" looking crack as you look at the face of the tsuka, edge down. The wood does *not* crack at the glue joint. So glue has nothing to do with it. It also starts under the fuchi where the wood is the thickest *and* where there is no samekawa whether it is full or panel wrapped.

    In many antiques and modern tsuka I've taken apart after failure when they do fail in this way *if* they have a properly done (notice properly) full wrap samekawa the cracks will usually be stopped dead at the point where the full wrap begins. Which makes sense as the full wrap is "squeezing" in and supporting the grain of the wood which runs the length of the tsuka (which is why it cracks more easily in that way). Most argue that a full wrap prevents the tsuka from snapping at the end of the nakago hence the longer nakago or using full wrap. The reality is that full wraps about reinforcing both the glue joint (old glues were terrible compared to modern ones) but *also* the grain of the wood through which cracks will propagate back.

    The full wrap, if done correctly, can also make the tsuka core fit a bit tighter as the finding when the skin is expanded (soaked) the skin locks in place with the pressure of the complete binding. So when the glue dries the tsuka will be harder to slide on and off of the nakago if done correctly. Add a proper tsukamaki and it will be even tighter.

    All that said there is a lot of discussion about this stuff. Remember that there are also different opinions based on why things are being done. Many antiques are restored never to be used. With those a full wrap is truly irrelevant except if the person simply wants to do one.

    Now all this said, an improperly done full wrap samekawa can be weaker than a properly done panel job. The "real" question is always one of quality of work first and foremost. Frankly panels work just fine under most circumstances. I do full wraps because I can and I prefer to work at that level. There are perfectly valid reasons for doing it differently. But most of my customers are also martial artists who want the highest level of performance and stability. So that's what I do.

    But... if we assume proper quality work of both ways of doing it, then the differences need to be kept in perspective. Let's say you're comparing two motorcycles. Let's say one has a 15 MPH higher top speed. Wow. Gotta go with that one. But let's also say it costs twice as much as the other one. Hmmm... Now let's also assume that the top speed of the "slower" motorcycle is 140 MPH. How much difference is that extra 15 MPH worth? Is it relevant?

    Yes, we can objectively say one is faster than the other. But if all you do is cruise around town, well, you're simply never going to do anything that will make the difference relevant.
    Keith Larman
    Summerchild Polishing and Modertosho Modern Japanese Swords
    "They say I have ADD, but ... Hey, look, a chicken!"

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Loganville GA
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank B View Post
    ... this was a $1500+ semi-custom katana and the person was really talking me out of it saying a full same wrap would actually be weaker than a panel insert again due to more wood+better modern glue...
    As others have said, this may be due to the size of the nakago versus the fuchi. A lot of modern katana, both custom made and production, have large nakago due to the "performance" blade profiles that are popular today for tameshigiri. Trying to use antique fittings or new ones based on older sets may not leave enough wood for a full wrap. Some of the nakago are so deep that it is hard to mount them without having custom fittings made.

    Dave P
    YEA, no longer unemployed....I have transitioned my 15 years of Architecture & Engineering experience into a new Project Manager position in Atlanta, GA

  5. #30

    Mr. Larman

    Sent a pm with link on Nakago topic, wanted you to decide on relevance.

    Greg

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by David W Price View Post
    As others have said, this may be due to the size of the nakago versus the fuchi. A lot of modern katana, both custom made and production, have large nakago due to the "performance" blade profiles that are popular today for tameshigiri. Trying to use antique fittings or new ones based on older sets may not leave enough wood for a full wrap. Some of the nakago are so deep that it is hard to mount them without having custom fittings made.

    Dave P
    Yeah, except at that point I'd be arguing that maybe you need larger fittings rather than trying to squeeze a big sword into a small tsuka...
    Keith Larman
    Summerchild Polishing and Modertosho Modern Japanese Swords
    "They say I have ADD, but ... Hey, look, a chicken!"

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Mukai View Post
    Sent a pm with link on Nakago topic, wanted you to decide on relevance.

    Greg
    Just looked at it now. Mods, if it is a problem delete the link.

    On Aoi Art: http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/sale/10209.html

    That is a very old, very nice kodachi. Rather short nakago. The question would be how it would have been mounted, however. Interesting (and good) to look at regardless.
    Keith Larman
    Summerchild Polishing and Modertosho Modern Japanese Swords
    "They say I have ADD, but ... Hey, look, a chicken!"

  8. #33

    Short Nakago related to time/style?

    I am not well versed in Japanese sword techniques and applications. Is there a connection between Nakago length and sword techniques popular at certain times in Japanese history?

    Greg

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Loganville GA
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Larman View Post
    Yeah, except at that point I'd be arguing that maybe you need larger fittings rather than trying to squeeze a big sword into a small tsuka...
    Agreed

    Dave P
    YEA, no longer unemployed....I have transitioned my 15 years of Architecture & Engineering experience into a new Project Manager position in Atlanta, GA

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Mukai View Post
    I am not well versed in Japanese sword techniques and applications. Is there a connection between Nakago length and sword techniques popular at certain times in Japanese history?

    Greg
    That is not a strong area for me. Don't really know but I will say I'm inclined to say no. Today people tend to focus at least initially on time periods in sword design. The reality is that as you dig deeper you also see regional variations in all sorts of things including mounts which themselves tended to follow along with regional differences in styles. So there is a bit of a "chicken or the egg" issue here as well, but there really are quite a few variables involved. Time periods. Sword evolution. Battle changes. Regional styles. And so on.

    But honestly, grain of salt time. This is not my strength.
    Keith Larman
    Summerchild Polishing and Modertosho Modern Japanese Swords
    "They say I have ADD, but ... Hey, look, a chicken!"

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    29
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Larman View Post
    reply
    Thank you Keith and everyone else for your input, that helps a lot. I just found it odd when I asked about a full same wrap and was steered away from it, I never heard anyone recommend panels over full.

    BTW that Peace sword is a damn fine piece of art and am really giving it some consideration for my next sword.

  12. #37
    Frank,
    I agree a full wrap would be the way to go if there is a lot of use in the swords future. Because historically it was used to bind or strengthen the tsuka, as you pointed out. If light use, or no use though-Panels may be OK, unless you just wanted full a full wrap. Anything I was going to use- I'd get full wrap. A Manufacturer or someone trying to sell something will say almost anything to sell that product. Whether it's true or not- In most cases.


    I recently damaged a "tactical" tanto made by hanwei. I was using it to remove the little Branches on a stalk of Bamboo and the Tsuka split- even the full wrap didn't help- but this blade had no Kashira- so-
    Piece of ****. Tactical- Yeah right.

  13. #38
    I got a question about your Peace Katana. I have been looking all over the internet for a good first katana. After days and weeks of just looking at different makers and learning about katanas and how they are made. I found that your Peace Katana is by far the coolest looking Katana I have ever seen. I know you got what I'm looking for in terms of looks but what about the blade. I saw a video where you said your blades on the peace katana are production forged and very sharp. How good at cutting is the peace katana's blade? I was wondering if by request you would put a Forged Folded blade on a peace katana and how much would that cost? Also what if I bought a Tamahagane blade or L6 blade that would fit it, if you would dress it up like the peace katana and how much it would cost me for the peace katana with a blade I gave you? I only ask because I want a full battle ready katana that could can with stand the test of time and still be sharp I also ask because when It comes to katanas I want one with a very strong and good blade because I want to buy only one high end katana to last me for the rest of my life. The blade is the most important part to me followed by looks.

    The only other katana I'm looking at is this one because Its a tamahagane blade and I know its been beat to death but the dragon style fittings. (I like the dragon, grim reaper, death, or battle scene styles the most.)
    http://www.budo-aoi.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=102

    Thank you for your time
    Last edited by Oniryuu Shinigami; 07-21-2010 at 04:11 PM.

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    427
    Hey!
    Shinigami (死神?, "death spirit")
    This is a real names forum, sir!
    Besides cool, the peace sword is made after an original. And how good it is goes beyond the thickness of the bamboo it can cut.
    Any good sword beaten to whatever will be damaged. I suggest reading, reading and more reading on Japanese swords.
    The real deal is a lot different from movies.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Costa Mesa, CA
    Posts
    8,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniryuu Shinigami View Post
    I got a question about your Peace Katana. I have been looking all over the internet for a good first katana. After days and weeks of just looking at different makers and learning about katanas and how they are made. I found that your Peace Katana is by far the coolest looking Katana I have ever seen. I know you got what I'm looking for in terms of looks but what about the blade. I saw a video where you said your blades on the peace katana are forged and very sharp. How good at cutting is the peace katana's blade?(i.e. how thick of bamboo can it cut though or you could give your own exapmle of how good they are at cutting.) I was wondering if by request you would put a Forged Folded blade on a peace katana and how much would that cost? Also what if I bought a Tamahagane blade or L6 blade that would fit it, if you would dress it up like the peace katana and how much it would cost me for the peace katana with a blade I gave you? I only ask because I want a full battle ready katana that could be beat to **** and still look good. I also ask because when It comes to katanas I want one with a very strong and good blade because I want to buy only one high end katana to last me for the rest of my life. The blade is the most important part to me followed by looks.

    The only other katana I'm looking at is this one because Its a tamahagane blade and I know its been beat to death but the dragon style fittings. (I like the dragon, grim reaper, death, or battle scene styles the most.)
    http://www.budo-aoi.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=102

    Thank you for your time

    Um... if you want to beat the crap out of a sword, it's not going to look good afterwards. Katana aren't lightsabers, they can be physically damaged through misuse. before you buy a katana everyone here will suggest you really, REALLY read up and research first before you buy one. I'm sure you're absolutely brand new at this and excited, but you may walk away with a $1700 katana snapped in two.

    I doubt any katana has ever survived someones entire life time unless they NEVER used it.
    Every time I put on a suit for a wedding or other event, I feel like I'm wearing optimal clothing for an epic fight scene...

    Ronin Outpost

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    810
    1) The Peace sword is forge folded.

    2) I second both of these guys. If you want a sword to beat the crap out of, then you should probably get a crowbar. Japanese swords are very specialized cutting weapons. They function well when used right. When misused, they get damaged.

    If you want a good sword that will cut well, this one would do fine...but it would do even better with some study and supervised, legitimate training.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Justice View Post
    I doubt any katana has ever survived someones entire life time unless they NEVER used it.
    Survived, plenty. Survived unscathed, considerably fewer. Unless you mean modern production pieces...
    I'm totally super cereal!

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Rubem Bastos View Post
    Hey!

    This is a real names forum, sir!
    Besides cool, the peace sword is made after an original. And how good it is goes beyond the thickness of the bamboo it can cut.
    Any good sword beaten to whatever will be damaged. I suggest reading, reading and more reading on Japanese swords.
    The real deal is a lot different from movies.
    well that is my real name. I had my name changed when I turned 18.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsugio Kawakami View Post
    1) The Peace sword is forge folded.

    2) I second both of these guys. If you want a sword to beat the crap out of, then you should probably get a crowbar. Japanese swords are very specialized cutting weapons. They function well when used right. When misused, they get damaged.

    If you want a good sword that will cut well, this one would do fine...but it would do even better with some study and supervised, legitimate training.





    Survived, plenty. Survived unscathed, considerably fewer. Unless you mean modern production pieces...
    1. Thanks I did not know it was already a Forged folded. He says on his video its a production forge but I did not know if he meant just forged or forged folded.

    2. You guys make it sound like I'm going to go out hit a light pole with it. lol Im not going to use it to hit anything I can find. Just wanted to know how durable they are that's all.
    Last edited by Oniryuu Shinigami; 07-21-2010 at 04:14 PM.

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    18
    The steel most katana's made for Bugei is known as Swedish Powdered Steel(SPS for short). SPS is a very durable modern steel, Far superior to traditional steel in many ways. Folding this steel is done for purely aesthetic reasons(hada, ect). Folding the steel was orginally done to even out the carbon content and remove impurties. It isn't needed for a modern steel like SPS but sure looks nice!

    Anywho, yes the peace sword..along with any other katana offered by Bugei cuts well. What do you plan on cutting? I ask because the geometery of the blade does matter depending on the targets. No, you cannot buy a premade peace sword tsuka to fit a L6 or Tamahagane blade, that would be quite dangerous. Although, i'm sure you can commision a craftsman to make one for you.

    Good luck finding what you are looking for!
    Last edited by Ken King; 07-21-2010 at 05:41 PM.
    Ken

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken King View Post
    The steel most katana's made for Bugei is known as Swedish Powdered Steel(SPS for short). SPS is a very durable modern steel, Far superior to traditional steel in many ways. Folding this steel is done for purely aesthetic reasons(hada, ect). Folding the steel was orginally done to even out the carbon content and remove impurties. It isn't needed for a modern steel like SPS but sure looks nice!

    Anywho, yes the peace sword..along with any other katana offered by bugei "cuts well." No, you cannot buy a premade peace sword tsuka to fit a L6 or Tamahagane blade, that would be quite dangerous. Although, i'm sure you can commision a craftsman to make one for you for.

    Good luck finding what you are looking for!

    Thank you very much I did not know that about SPS. I had heard of it. If you cant put a premade one on there is it posibble to send the blade into bugei and they make one to fit the blade?

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    18
    As far as I know no. Keith does quality control for Bugei and little things like rewraps on messed up tsuka-ito they recieve. What you are talking about is getting a complete tsuka core/saya carved, lacquer/wrap same', and the tsuka-ito done up. Plus, you'd need to find a supplier for the F/K, menuki and tsuba. If you like that design and want your katana to look like the peace sword but want a different blade you need to fine a craftsman thats willing to the custom work. That is usually rather expensive and there is also usually a rather long que.
    Ken

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken King View Post
    As far as I know no. Keith does quality control for Bugei and little things like rewraps on messed up tsuka-ito they recieve. What you are talking about is getting a complete tsuka core/saya carved, lacquer/wrap same', and the tsuka-ito done up. Plus, you'd need to find a supplier for the F/K, menuki and tsuba. If you like that design and want your katana to look like the peace sword but want a different blade you need to fine a craftsman thats willing to the custom work. That is usually rather expensive and there is also usually a rather long que.


    I see, so im better off just getting it as is or just buy a katana with a tamahagane blade like this one
    http://www.budo-aoi.com/index.php?ma...roducts_id=102

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Costa Mesa, CA
    Posts
    8,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsugio Kawakami View Post

    Survived, plenty. Survived unscathed, considerably fewer. Unless you mean modern production pieces...
    Well, I meant in good enough shape to be completely serviceable, not an overly polished blade with almost no hamon left. Especially a blade put under the stress the OP originally intended for it.
    Every time I put on a suit for a wedding or other event, I feel like I'm wearing optimal clothing for an epic fight scene...

    Ronin Outpost

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Costa Mesa, CA
    Posts
    8,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniryuu Shinigami View Post
    1. Thanks I did not know it was already a Forged folded. He says on his video its a production forge but I did not know if he meant just forged or forged folded.

    2. You guys make it sound like I'm going to go out hit a light pole with it. lol Im not going to use it to hit anything I can find. Just wanted to know how durable they are that's all.
    Well, you were the one who put you wanted to beat the shitake mushroom out of it. That came across to us as you were going to throw everything and anything in its path.
    Every time I put on a suit for a wedding or other event, I feel like I'm wearing optimal clothing for an epic fight scene...

    Ronin Outpost

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniryuu Shinigami View Post
    well that is my real name. I had my name changed when I turned 18.
    Was that six years in the future?

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •