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Thread: Qin Dynasty Spear/Polearm Weapon?

  1. #1

    Qin Dynasty Spear/Polearm Weapon?

    Hello fellows I'm hoping if anyone can tell me where I can buy a (or have one made) Qin Dynasty Spear/Polearm weapon? This is the one I'm refering to:

    http://epaper.xiancn.com/xawb/res/1/...1739507781.jpg

    I've searched for months now without success hope you fellows here can help me thanks!!

    Add: I was recommended the following, but I looked at all three stores and did not find what I was looking for...

    - JinShi
    - Zhi Sword
    - Sino Sword

  2. #2
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    There are usually some on ebay, being sold as supposed antiques. Try searching for "dagger axe", "bronze spear", "ge dagger", etc. (Alas, "ge" by itself isn't a useful search term.)

    Expect them to be overpriced and over-antiqued, but sometimes there are some that might be OK.

    (Similar comments apply if you want a bronze spear point to put on the same shaft.)

    I haven't see iron/steel ones for sale, only bronze (well, supposedly bronze - some of them are brass).
    "In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.

  3. #3
    I can technically cast them, but I'd have to allocate the time for it, which is tricky in my busy schedule. I'd have to carve the models for it first, which will take some evenings. I've been wanting to cast one of the examples from the terracota army for some time:

    http://1501bc.com/page/Terracota_arm...n/04270062.jpg

    http://1501bc.com/page/Terracota_arm...n/04270063.jpg

    They're a specific bronze alloy (higher tin then usual, which makes it hard and brittle), which is easy to make, but you won't find it in the fake antiques at least (which won't be properly shaped, let alone sharpened). If you're really serious about wanting them, and if the price is right I may be able to help.

    N.b. the dagger axes in the picture you showed are much larger and bulkier then the real thing. I'd have to dig for information to find more exact dimensions though.

  4. #4
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    Wow... Please show us how it turns out if you DO get one made, ok? I've always liked the ge "ankle cutter" polearms.

    And I would recommend getting one from Jeroen. His stuff is always awesome and about as authentic as possible in the 21st century. Real works of art, I reckon.

    (Not wanting to hijack the thread, so maybe you can PM me if you want...

    But Jeroen, how did the Han Dao you were making a while back turn out? I really wanted to see that one in it's finished state.)

  5. #5
    Hello Jeroen, that is exactly what I'm looking for! And I actually found the specs here (scroll half way down):

    http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E6%88%88

    I have the specs written in, hope you find this useful:

    http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/a...er/GeSpecs.jpg

    Can you please tell me how long it would take and how much it would cost with what material? Thanks so much!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeroen Zuiderwijk View Post
    I can technically cast them, but I'd have to allocate the time for it, which is tricky in my busy schedule. I'd have to carve the models for it first, which will take some evenings. I've been wanting to cast one of the examples from the terracota army for some time:

    http://1501bc.com/page/Terracota_arm...n/04270062.jpg

    http://1501bc.com/page/Terracota_arm...n/04270063.jpg

    They're a specific bronze alloy (higher tin then usual, which makes it hard and brittle), which is easy to make, but you won't find it in the fake antiques at least (which won't be properly shaped, let alone sharpened). If you're really serious about wanting them, and if the price is right I may be able to help.

    N.b. the dagger axes in the picture you showed are much larger and bulkier then the real thing. I'd have to dig for information to find more exact dimensions though.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennison N View Post
    Wow... Please show us how it turns out if you DO get one made, ok? I've always liked the ge "ankle cutter" polearms.

    And I would recommend getting one from Jeroen. His stuff is always awesome and about as authentic as possible in the 21st century. Real works of art, I reckon.

    (Not wanting to hijack the thread, so maybe you can PM me if you want...

    But Jeroen, how did the Han Dao you were making a while back turn out? I really wanted to see that one in it's finished state.)
    Yeah, me too It's not done yet. I've put that project on hold in favor of other activities, so it's in the box of projects to continue on later. I will finish at least one of those though. I just got the casting vibe back again, so my hands are itching to do some bronze work again

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeroen Zuiderwijk View Post
    Yeah, me too It's not done yet. I've put that project on hold in favor of other activities, so it's in the box of projects to continue on later. I will finish at least one of those though. I just got the casting vibe back again, so my hands are itching to do some bronze work again
    I replied your PM Jeroen, hope to hear from you

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeroen Zuiderwijk View Post
    Yeah, me too It's not done yet. I've put that project on hold in favor of other activities, so it's in the box of projects to continue on later. I will finish at least one of those though. I just got the casting vibe back again, so my hands are itching to do some bronze work again
    I hope you go to work on Chuan Yi's Ge. I'd like to see a good one of those made. I saw a couple of nice old ones on R. Allan Barker's collection website. There's a link to there from here. He has a nice collection of bronzes, with a couple of Ge in amongst them.



    And now, regarding that Han Dao... Do you have a buyer for it? If not, sign me up! Would that help get it back under your hammer? Mate's rates? Haha! Kidding... PM me if you're keen.

    Because THAT is really more my kind of bronze sword than another one of those Spring and Autumn Jian (I'm more of a Marshall than a Gentleman these days, I guess...), or even one of those Korean Violin Daggers we were talking about...

  9. #9

  10. #10
    I've just cast 3 of them, I'm exhausted Photos will follow when it's more light again.

  11. #11

  12. #12
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    Wow, cool! Beautiful!
    Now, When you make the grip-tongue sword....

  13. #13
    I started finishing one of the dagger-axes, and noticed that it's got a fair bit of porosity. I checked out the other two, and they have some flaws as well. Whereas previously I would have had to go with these, as I can now easily cast more at home, I decided to reject the first series. The one I started on will be finished, but I need a few new castings.

    I know the cause of the porosity, and basically it's sharp edges in the (sand) mould, which come apart during casting and cause lots of small bubbles in the bronze. So I adjusted the model, and spend a lot more time working on the moulds to get them right. Tonight I cast two more dagger-axes. They look better, but I'll have to see what they're like when I'm finishing them. I also cast a guard for the bronze dao, so that project is getting progress as well.

  14. #14

    Cool Destructive testing!

    As I have rejected dagger-axes available, that makes them a great opportunity to do some destructive testing. As I'm still not entirely familiar with the Chinese bronze, that provides a nice learning experience. This is one of the dagger-axes I quenched directly after casting, to prevent the bronze from getting too brittle by slow cooling (which is the case by these high-tin bronzes).

    So I first started on the blade of one of the dagger-axes. I suppored both ends on wood, and started hitting it in the middle with a ball-peen hammer. After a good deal of pretty noisy hits, the blade finally broke. Below you can see the two pieces together, and the amount the blade bend before it broke:



    That's not too bad! Below you can see the inside of the blade:




    If you look carefully, you'll see tiny light dots near the lower cutting edge. That's the porosity. This significantly weakens the blade, particularly in a harder and more brittle blade like this. So the real thing would take a lot more beatings and bend much further before breaking.

    I did the same for the na (the rear blade). As you can see, that one took a lot more punishment and bend much further before it broke:



    It didn't even break all the way through there. The dark spot here near the top edge, at the top end of the crack is a casting flaw.



    So with a casting flaw, and the hole (not all the way through yet) for binding the dagger-axe to the haft, do weaken the blade there. I'm really amazed how much deformation that took! Here you can see the other side of the blade. Each dent is a hard blow with a hammer, so that's roughly 20 hammer blows.



    Mind though, the thickness on mine may not be entirely accurate. Originals could be a bit thinner, which would make them weaker, but also able to bend a lot further before breaking. But this testing has definately changed my whole view Chinese bronze weapons. This high tin bronze (about 18-20% tin), does make great weapons, if the bronze is toughened by quenching. If a 5mm blade, with casting flaws can take 20 concentrated hard blows by a ball-peen hammer, while being supported in the most vulnerable way (held in the hand the same blow would have much less impact), then this makes a very durable weapon in combat. Considering that Qin Shi Huang seems to have conquered states using hardened steel weapons, his army using bronze, this is now less of a mystery to me. I'm also not surprized that earlier wrought iron in China was not capable of replacing this bronze, as this bronze would definately outmatch softer wrought iron blades.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by tom hyle View Post
    Wow, cool! Beautiful!
    Thanks

    Now, When you make the grip-tongue sword....
    Which one? The dao? (got plenty of grip-tongue swords, but European ones )

  16. #16
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    super cool impressive strength.
    I like the ball pein hammer test it has tought me a lot though the years
    Your work is very interesting; you seem refreshingly serious about it.
    Have you seen the "distal taper" thread on the ancient weapons forum?
    Last edited by tom hyle; 08-03-2010 at 04:08 PM.

  17. #17
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    I can't get your swords to pop up; was jokingly hoping you'd show us one here I like your saxes.
    Fun concept at random on early German blades; I think the halberd is derived from long-handle meat cleavers. I think the frequency of tanged construction among other factors (the name included; hall beard=house axe?) points to this.

  18. #18
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    Jeroen?

    I was just wondering how the Ge had turned out... Any further progress on them? I'd love to take a look.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeroen Zuiderwijk View Post
    Thanks


    Which one? The dao? (got plenty of grip-tongue swords, but European ones )
    Jeroen,
    I note these posts are a little old so not sure if you will receive this. This is my first time to use a forum. I am interested in buying a dagger axe for a pole i have made for my Terracotta Warrior statue. I assume that you have the moulding perfected? How can i arrange one?

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