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Thread: Turkish Star Twistcore Kindjal: Translation Needed

  1. #1

    Turkish Star Twistcore Kindjal: Translation Needed

    Hi all,
    Have recently acquired this Turkish Kindjal, with a vivid Star pattern twistcore. The inscription seems to read 'Amel ****** 1322'
    So 'Made by ****** 1904'
    Can anyone read the other word?
    Also if anyone has any comments, further info about this type of blade or other examples that they'd like to share, I'd appreciate it.
    Best
    Gene




    Last edited by Gene Wilkinson; 10-30-2010 at 07:27 AM.

  2. #2
    No answers? Can't anyone translate this?
    Come on peeps, help a brother out here!
    We know it reads 'Amal ***** 1322' How can one little word defeat us! Arghhh!!!
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Gene Wilkinson; 11-23-2010 at 07:53 AM.

  3. #3
    Hi Gene,

    I could read the same word and date that you said:
    عمل ...: Maker ...
    1322

    Unfortunately have no idea what that missing word would be! It should be the name of the maker though...

    Regards
    Rahil

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Rahil A. View Post
    Hi Gene,

    I could read the same word and date that you said:
    عمل ...: Maker ...
    1322

    Unfortunately have no idea what that missing word would be! It should be the name of the maker though...

    Regards
    Rahil
    Hi Rahil.

    Thank you so much for trying.
    To be honest, I'm completely out of ideas of how to translate this now.
    I've now shown it to Turkish, Arabic and Georgian speakers, and nobody has been able to read the missing word.

    It's such a beautiful blade, I'd love to know the name of the man who made it. But it looks as though that might not be possible.

    I have wondered if although the sword is Ottoman, the maker might be non-Turkish?

    Anyway,


    Again, thanks for trying. Your efforts are sincerely appreciated.

    Kind Regards
    Gene

  5. #5
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    Gene,

    Could you post the inscription upside down please?

    Kind regards
    Manouchehr

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Manouchehr M. View Post
    Gene,

    Could you post the inscription upside down please?

    Kind regards
    Manouchehr
    Sure thing. Thanks for coming into this Manouchehr.


  7. #7
    The only word that come to my mind for the missing word is بحر which means ocean, sea!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rahil A. View Post
    The only word that come to my mind for the missing word is بحر which means ocean, sea!
    Hi Rahil,

    Thats very interesting.
    I know its a stretch, but could he have been a second generation foreign bladesmith with a name that hinted at his foreign heritage?
    As in 'from across the sea' or similar?
    If you don't mind I will share your idea with others and hopefully this possible clue may lead to something else?

    Thank you again Rahil.

    Regards
    Gene

  9. #9
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    could it be a turkish or perhaps a caucasian name? dont think its بحر due to the absence of the letter R, Rahil.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Alnakas View Post
    could it be a turkish or perhaps a caucasian name? dont think its بحر due to the absence of the letter R, Rahil.
    Well, so far I've shown it to Turkish, Arabic, and a Georgian speaker.
    Nobody has recognised it.
    What other caucasian languages do you think it might be?

    Best
    Gene

  11. #11
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    i have no idea. can you make sure if the inscription is complete? if its damaged or certain parts of it is faded then it might be very difficult to know.

    it could be عمل مجد (amel majd). Majd is a common name in the levante but thats not my 100% sure answer.

    how many caucasian languages there is?:P how many of them used arabic alphabets at somepoint? hmm


    A.Alnakkas

  12. #12
    I'm pretty sure there is no damage to the inscription. The metal isn't worn at all. Is this any easier to see?

  13. #13
    I think it wont be مجدas it doesnt have the د and also at the beginning doesnt have any feature for م . I know بحر is strange, but regarding the letter ر R, even when I write this letter in Persian, the letter R ر and ح H simply merge together like this...anyhow, other thing taht we need to bear in mind is that the inscriptions on metal are not identical to handwritings as its so difficult to so it, many times they just try to show the words, like some signs of the words...

    we need to consider that maybe it is not عمل as well! cause the circle for م is not attached to the ع and ل but the similarity of the letter to عمل lead everyone to decide it to be this word!
    I think maybe, if we dont consider it as the typical phrase of عمل.... we maybe come up with new ides and new phrases!
    I am wondering why the letter and the number are not at the same direction and one is upside down to the other!?

  14. #14
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    you have a point, Rahil. and yes, it might not be عمل or even شغل but could the first letter be ش? i think its possible, since the 3 dots are commonly written as a bent line.

    what do you think?

  15. #15
    Thank you gentlemen. You've got me on the edge of my seat now! I'd almost given up on this

  16. #16
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    your most welcome. it may take a while to identify this :P

  17. #17
    A.Alnakas, Yes! I think we can think of ش as well! good point!
    this is the way an inscription could be read! all the possibilities.. and then the right one!
    Thanks

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    okies, so the first letter is ش (sh) but what about the 2nd? i think it could be م (m) since it cant be a غ (gha) nor a ب (B) (i concluded its not ب because the scripe wrote it as a circle instead of a Dot, while at the 2nd word, he put a dot.) the last letter i think is either د (d) or ل (L). if its ل then it can be become شمل (shamal) in arabic which means (contained or absorbed) if its a د then its شمد (shamad) and that doesnt sound like any arabic word i know.

    what do you think?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Alnakas View Post
    okies, so the first letter is ش (sh) but what about the 2nd? i think it could be م (m) since it cant be a غ (gha) nor a ب (B) (i concluded its not ب because the scripe wrote it as a circle instead of a Dot, while at the 2nd word, he put a dot.) the last letter i think is either د (d) or ل (L). if its ل then it can be become شمل (shamal) in arabic which means (contained or absorbed) if its a د then its شمد (shamad) and that doesnt sound like any arabic word i know.

    what do you think?
    Hi Abdullatif,

    So you are reading 'both' words as one? Is that correct?
    Is Shamal a name? I remember the maserati Shamal
    It's a wind as well isn't it?

    Thanks for all your efforts, they are truly appreciated.

    Best
    Gene

  20. #20
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    hey

    no am only reading the first word. Never heard an arab named Shamal but its a verb, it means that something also contains something.

    Like "shamala alketab ba'than min abyat elshe'r" which means that the book contained poetry. but still doesnt make sense.

    i know am getting the letters right now but dont think i'll be able to translate it, its obviously not arabic maybe a turk or a bosneian would help?

  21. #21
    Might that word be "Shamil"; like the İmam Shamil, historical Caucasian resistance leader? If so, this kindjal might be Caucasian in origin.
    "The relationship between West(Occident) and East(Orient) is indeed an example of a relationship of power and domination. Orientalism is thus a style of thought based upon an ontological and epistemological distinction made between the Orient and the Occident. It is a Western style of dominating, restructuring and building hegemony over the Orient.İt is an accepted grid for filtering through the Orient into Western consciousness, into the general culture."
    From "Orientalism" by Edward Said

  22. #22
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    its possible if so, then yeah we need someone from that region (or someone who knows hte language there) to read this.

  23. #23
    Oh, I did send a copy to a Georgian chap. He said it looked like Arabic!

  24. #24
    Muslim Caucasians (such as Circassians, Chechens etc.) used to write with Arabic alphabet.
    "The relationship between West(Occident) and East(Orient) is indeed an example of a relationship of power and domination. Orientalism is thus a style of thought based upon an ontological and epistemological distinction made between the Orient and the Occident. It is a Western style of dominating, restructuring and building hegemony over the Orient.İt is an accepted grid for filtering through the Orient into Western consciousness, into the general culture."
    From "Orientalism" by Edward Said

  25. #25
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    yeah, best option would be to contact a muslim Caucasian but sadly i dont know any.

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