Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 95

Thread: Indian Cavalry Sword by Thurkle, markings??

  1. #51

    Indian Cavalry sword markings

    Hi Matt,

    By any chance did you get the details of the sword you bid on but missed? Was it the same guard/grip/blade type as most of the others we have been discussing and did it have the H S King etching or just the Thurkle name?

    Gordon

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,936
    It was exactly the same hilt and blade as mine, it had RBG and etching to Thurkle - there was more text above the Thurkle etching, which may indeed have been HS King etc, but the person who was viewing the item for me could not read that part because of dirt on the blade. My guess however, given the number of words/space they occupied, is that it was the exact same HS King by Thurkle marking. It was sold at Chiswick Auctions yesterday. It had no scabbard (of course ).

    Hope this is helpful!
    Matt

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Hampshire
    Posts
    2,691
    RBG

    Looking again at this 'stamped' mark set me wondering concerning the relationship between Thurkle, Mole and RBG.

    My thinking is that none of the swords you have all mentioned were supplied to RBG by Thurkle or Mole, they possibly came 2nd hand.
    Bear with me on this please!
    The Mole and Thurkle swords (together with the H S King ) are all ETCHED by the makers.
    Now if Mole or Thurkle or even H S King via Thurkle/Mole were supplying RBG then why isn't the RBG mark etched on the blade?
    This stamping which is some cases is pretty haphazard in location and striking looks like the swords were marked long after they had left Mole or Thurkle or King.

    The mark does not look as if it was put there at time of manufacture.

    Maybe we are looking for a Merchant, probably Birmingham, who bough up a job lot from India Stores Surplus and marked them and sold them. I cannot think that these have been through Official or even Regimental channels.

    Just a thought for discussion.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kingston area, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    3,079
    Very interesting thought Robert, apon closer examination of my sword, the RBG mark is centred nicely but appears to be covering an older stamp that is partially visible. Maybe this was done to cover a government marking and at the same time add theirs?

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Hampshire
    Posts
    2,691
    Let me just throw this into the melting pot!

    Information is sketchy but I came across reference (still trying to find more detail) of
    R G Blakemore, London and or Birmingham 1870's, 80's and 90's.. Described as Export Agents who mainly seemed to have specialised in Railways and Railway Locomotives etc. (India Big Customer!).

    Perhaps these swords were for his employees working out in the 'wilds' or as gifts to Indian princes for their troops through whose territory the track was being laid? Perhaps Mr Blakemore was too mean to order NEW swords from Mole or Thurkle when second hand ISD surplus would do!!!

    All supposition until I or WE can find about more about R G Blakemore.

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kingston area, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    3,079
    I am curious if other swords with the RBG mark show it covering an older mark similar to the picture I posted previously here. I think the covered mark may be an inspection mark or??

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,936
    Interesting re. Blakemore, Robert. I couldn't find any more details on him, other than engineering associations.

    Will, I'm fairly certain that there are no other visible marks on mine. Is it possible that yours could be a re-striking of the RBG mark? I have seen other swords and bayonets where the first strike got messed up or was not deep enough, so they did it again on almost the same spot.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kingston area, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    3,079
    Yes Matt, it's possible it is a re-strike, it is hard to tell from the picture I posted due to cleaning over the years, remaining marks are weak.

  9. #59

    Indian Cavalry sword by Thurkle - Markings

    I have looked closely at two examples with the etched shield naming Thurkle as maker for H. S. King, and the RBG mark is quite clearly stamped on both with no obviouis restrike.

    We must also look at the markings on my Mountain Battery sword, which although a different type to the cavalry pattern undere discussion, it has three markings which includes the RBG mark.

    The maker in this particular case is MOLE (marked on the back edge of blade), with India inspection mark on the left side ricasso, and the RBG mark on the right side ricasso; there has been absolutely no attempt to obscure the original marks by applying the RBG mark over the top of the inspection mark, nor has there been any attempt to cross out or remove the inspection mark, or the issue date and unit marking on the guard, which could possibly be the case when, or if a piece of equipment was sold out of service.

    At this point, I still tend to believe that the cavalry pattern under dicussion was likely supplied direct to a silladar cavalry regiment or other unit, who purchased swords direct from a maker/agent rather than supply via the India Office; this would go some way in explaining why nearly all of the known examples have regiment or unit numbering on the guards, but no ISD marks.

    Gordon

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,936
    Resurrecting this old thread, as I've found another related example (though some of you may be aware of this).
    We have many times mentioned Frederick Roberts' sword in the NAM:
    http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collecti...c=1955-04-73-1

    But looking through the NAM website I have found another similar sword, which as far as I'm aware is not on display there:
    http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collecti...cc=1951-02-1-1

    This second example seems even more closely related to these Indian trooper's sabres to me. The blade is extremely similar to mine. The hilt is also a close match.

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Hampshire
    Posts
    2,691
    Being simple and just 'FISHING' here but could RBG be a regimental mark as Gordon suggested for one of the Princely States such as
    Royal (or Raja's) Guard Baroda?

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,936
    Hi Robert, I had a similar thought, but I couldn't find any that matched. Though there were loads of them, so it's entirely possible!

  13. #63
    It is interesting that the sword originally owned by John Burard Edwards, 2nd Central India Horse (now in the NAM) is a very close match to these Thurkle and RBG swords under discussion; at one stage in my search for an answer, I actually concluded that they could have been supplied to the CIH, owing to the fact that the CIH had swords supplied direct to the regiment from merchants (possibly makers as well) as apposed to government issue; at one stage they were supplied by Bourne & Son, and there is every possibility that they could also have been supplied by Thurkle, and the time frame circa 1881 (which matches the date of Edwards sword) sits well with me in terms of the configuration of these swords.

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,936
    Very interesting Gordon. I feel that is must be more than coincidence that Edwards' sword matches so very closely the outline of these 'RGB' and Thurkle swords. It's not a 1796 sabre outline to the blade, it's really quite a distinct and different form.

    Attached Images Attached Images  

  15. #65
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Midlands UK
    Posts
    10

    rBg

    Another resurrection of this thread which I have been reading with much interest as I have a sword of this pattern. Firstly looking at the reproduction of the "rgb" or "rbg" mark. Could it possibly be "RG" later over printed with "B"? Mine which is a Bourne made sword has RB followed by a number (2112?) stamped on the guard. Also 6 over 36, could this be Jacob's Horse? The 6/36 has been lined through as has the following illegible number.

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sidmouth, in the South-West of the UK
    Posts
    2,294
    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Hartwright View Post
    Firstly looking at the reproduction of the "rgb" or "rbg" mark. Could it possibly be "RG" later over printed with "B"?
    I think from the thickness and depth of the stamping, the R, G and B were all done at the same time; ie not an overstrike or cancelling.

    Photos of your sword and its marking would no doubt be very interesting to many of us here!

    John
    "If I can't be a good example to others, at least let me be a horrible warning".

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Hartwright View Post
    Another resurrection of this thread which I have been reading with much interest as I have a sword of this pattern. Firstly looking at the reproduction of the "rgb" or "rbg" mark. Could it possibly be "RG" later over printed with "B"? Mine which is a Bourne made sword has RB followed by a number (2112?) stamped on the guard. Also 6 over 36, could this be Jacob's Horse? The 6/36 has been lined through as has the following illegible number.
    Hi Colin,

    At the risk of another resurrection, I would be very! interested to see some photos of your sword and in particular the markings; any chance?

    Gordon

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Midlands UK
    Posts
    10
    John, Gordon.

    I will post photos when I get some half-ways decent ones! I had a different query re this sword some time ago and put some pictures on facebook but I think they have gone into limbo. Bear with me!

  19. #69

    Cutlass with RGB mark

    I had not noticed this thread before its recent revival but this may add another small piece of information to the search for RGB.

    I have an 1859 naval cutlass marked on the ricasso Robt Mole & Sons, Birmingham, in two lines, and with a broad arrow over a capitol I. On the other side RGB in the same configuration as shown in previous pictures on this thread. I was not aware that Colonial India had a separate navy until I came across this piece and I have always wondered about the RGB.

    Regards, David.

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Stratford upon Avon UK
    Posts
    300
    Colin, David, as you can see many many of us have been following this fascinating thread, and before it drops off the page, could we PLEASE have some photos soon ( sorry to beg, but this thread is becoming obsessive/compulsive!) Many thanks, Ben.

  21. #71
    Hi,

    Here are the pictures of the markings on the cutlass. As you can see the RGB marking is very similar to those already recorded on this thread.
    Regards, David.
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Stratford upon Avon UK
    Posts
    300
    Thanks to David for his photos, other than Gordon,s Mountain Battery sword, are these the only examples of War Dept. marked RGB weapons that have come to light? Gordon, do these examples upset your theory about 'direct supply' to Indian Forces, or do you think they,re just an anomaly and slipped through? Curiouser and curiouser! Ben.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bevan View Post
    Thanks to David for his photos, other than Gordon,s Mountain Battery sword, are these the only examples of War Dept. marked RGB weapons that have come to light? Gordon, do these examples upset your theory about 'direct supply' to Indian Forces, or do you think they,re just an anomaly and slipped through? Curiouser and curiouser! Ben.
    Hi Ben,

    Yes, David is to be thanked for the images and he has a very interesting piece. I think we now have three ports of call taking into account my Mountain Battery sword and David's cutlass, and these are:

    1. The maker - Mole
    2. The end user which in my case was the Indian Artillery with the later inspection marks. In the case of the cutlass, it was the Indian Navy with the very much earlier inspection mark, which I have on swords that date to circa 1858
    3. Both sword and cutlass are marked RBG

    As an extension to these three points, we know that the RBG marking is found quite consistently on the 3-bar cavalry swords under discussion in the section, and some of those were made by Thurkle. If we apply the same three point analysis, we have the following:

    1. Maker - Thurkle
    2. The end user - ???
    3. Has the RBG mark

    In this case the unanswered question is the end user of the 3-bar cavalry swords which possibly started this post, but the RBG mark is common to all three types of sword. Therefore it is still possible that swords with this RBG marking and no Indian inspection mark were sold direct to the end user.

    If the RBG marking was applied to the blade at the time the swords were made, in the case of the cutlass, it effectively gives us a very much earlier date for this marking than was previously thought to be the case.

    Gordon

  24. #74
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Midlands UK
    Posts
    10
    Name:  I S 1.jpg
Views: 163
Size:  94.8 KBName:  I S 2.jpg
Views: 175
Size:  97.3 KBName:  I S 3.jpg
Views: 157
Size:  58.9 KBName:  I S 4.jpg
Views: 178
Size:  99.6 KB

    Here are the sword pictures (at last) sorry for the delay. Any comments welcome. Sword dimensions are, in inches, L(chord) 31 1/2, W at hilt 1 5/8, T at hilt 1/4. As you can see it has a fearful kink also one or two hopeful looking notches on the blade. They of course could be anything. If you read this Chris I still have a note of your interest!

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sidmouth, in the South-West of the UK
    Posts
    2,294
    Thanks, Colin. The arrangement of the bars doesn't match anything I've seen before: in your first picture, for a traditional 3-bar 1821 LC hilt, I would normally expect the second bar from the left to run parallel with the third bar from the left to join the guard near the base of the blade. To have it joining the outer bar instead is quite interesting! Could you do a front-on shot (similar to the attached) so we can see that more clearly?

    John
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    "If I can't be a good example to others, at least let me be a horrible warning".

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •