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Thread: Early Ames And Other's Militia NCO Patterns

  1. #76
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    Then we have the long and short of the brass hilted regulation forms. The short Roby one here with traces of gilt left and an etched blade.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; there was a weird Ames musician piece recently and I forget if I saved the pictures (a Chicago retailer and Healy/Healey owner named piece
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  2. #77
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    I don't have the associated plates for French forms but here is a fairly comprehensive list of French swords. I am having a hard time finding an 1822 infantry nco type?

    edit to add

    The French 1821 infantry officer model is what the sword you show seems to indicate, while the U.S. foot officer swords were based on a later French model?
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    Last edited by Glen C.; 01-13-2012 at 07:44 AM.

  3. #78
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    French Pattern NCO? sword

    This the sword that I mentioned above. Please set me straight as to it's specific model. I figure it to be an NCO, because it uses a frog.
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    Last edited by T. Graham; 01-13-2012 at 08:22 AM.

  4. #79
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    American nco but based on a commissioned officer type that predates the U.S. adoption of the foliate acanthus guard foot officer swords, then also applied to the Marines use. I have no doubt your notes of later assembly must be true, or in that vein but not what the other Marine nco swords look like after the mameluke was re-introduced for commissioned officer use.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; We see also in later years the current army nco sword as adopted from the fancier general officer 1840 cast grips instead of the plain egg pommel.

  5. #80
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    Not to go too far afield, but I see what you are both saying about what this "French pattern" sword is. I agree that Horstmann made/assembled/imported these "French" swords and sold them to American Militia. I agree that they are most probably US Militia swords worn by both officers and NCOs. I don't see any verifiable USMC lineage though. Here are some photos of two of these that I would argue is an Officer style worn on slings with a two ring steel scabbard and a NCO style worn in a frog. The Officer style sword is a Horstmann & Sons Philadelphia while the NCO style is a Peter Daniel Luneschloss (PDL) with a top sewn French style leather scabbard with no French markings.
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    "You can't please everyone, so you have to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

  6. #81
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    Horstmann & Sons Keystone NCO? sword

    This is the first one of this version of the militia NCO swords I have seen, but, is it militia? There are no other marks on it. Blade is thinner and a bit longer than some of the similar swords that have been determined as actual NCO swords.
    The cross guard is the two piece casting that is typical of these Hostmann made swords.
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  7. #82
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    Hi Tim

    There had been a keystone guard on the bay in the past month or so that had the langets bent outward (maybe they were looking for marks) and that one immediately brought to mind the keystone in the fraternal bible KM444 on page 169. The scabbard looks Horstmann enough that I think it is like this one.

    The current Wicker Man (sic) is worth watching, if you are not already I'll have to say the pool seems to have drained a bit but before we know it, more curious ones turn up.

    Do all the two piece guards show the seam clearly, or are they at times pretty well blended out and invisible? I had spotted a few with the seam showing.

    I have been digging at Maiden Lane a good bit lately as well, looking at the growth on that row and so many military supply shops taking up shop there. Jonathan Hopkins recently presented me the Schuyler Hartley & Graham catalog. I had some of it in pdf but the entire catalog handy to have. It was that company and Wolfe of decades past that had me digging at Maiden Lane. A grandson (?) John Wolfe was the end of the hardware, import and military merchandiser with an early skyscraper (13 stories) that was finished just before his death. That building as well was demolished in the end in the last century The shop space for SH&G looked pretty impressive for its day. I am working on more for all the shops we bump into on the sword/militaria end.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; other distractions have been keeping me busy this quarter
    Last edited by Glen C.; 02-11-2012 at 09:58 PM.

  8. #83
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    Keystone Horstmann lodge sword

    One and the same. Since I had to repair the langets, I figured what the hell.
    The cross guard is a two piece construction which seems to typical of Horstmann. You can clearly see the joint.
    The blade has suffered and there is none of the etching shown in the fraternal sword book.
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  9. #84
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    Tim Graham will be at Maryland Arms Collectors table X26, March 16 to 18. This is the best antique weapons show in the world.

  10. #85
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    Ames ? for Baker and Mckinney

    Pick up this little gem NCO at Baltimore. Bezdek dates Baker & McKinney 1864-1883. Here is another partially silvered scabbard; but I have yet to see a silvered hilt. The scabbard mounts should suffer wear where it rubs against the frog. If the hilt was silvered, there should be some remnants in the recesses.
    I do not see a parting line on the cross guard, so I attribute it to Ames.
    I had to put the scabbard back together. Can you find the repair?
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  11. #86
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    Emerson & Silver for Price

    Here is another gem from Baltimore. According to Bezdek, Vergil Price an agent for Emerson & Silver and was in Business from 1838 - 1858 and again 1868-1875.
    Now E & S was making swords in quantity from 1860 to 1865???
    The was a William Price Co. 1858-1860 who, according to RB is the brother of Virgil and is listed as a partner.
    I will ask the the more scholarly of us if they have some clarification.
    There was gold paint on the scabbard mountings and it is possible that this is a marriage; but close enough, that I won't quibble.
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  12. #87
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    Hi Tim

    It looks like it was a successful hunt at Baltimore. I need to digest some of this I see and indeed, a rather massive Easter spread today. What I do see of the second is that the etching for the Emerson/Price piece looks more like the earlier patterns in the 30's/40's as opposed to the other above with the shield guard which does look like the later "pick from the catalog" type etching that was becoming quite common in later decades and as with some other blades, does look like Ames etchings. The grip on the first though not in line with the earlier Ames grips either. I need to digest some more. I don't see the mend in the scabbard so have to say "well done!".

    While it has been summer like outdoors here, I am still buried within this cave and need to dig out for the summer. I lost one drive and this time may never get that one back but a fair share between September and January were recent files I had put online. Dates and bios I am tackling from some other angles than the books and I'll poke around some for Price this next week. I did pick up a Horstmann recently but it falls out of the cruciform and helmet head category.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; not sure how I got sunburnt on a cloudy day but I got some on the highway home

  13. #88
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    Starting with an old haunt at Ron Rubles good information pages

    Swords marked with PRICE were made from 1838 to 1875. The list at the bottom of this page shows each type of blade markings and the years they were manufactured. Bothers Michael Price and Virgil Price were in business in New York from 1838 until 1858. In 1858, William Price purchased William H. Milnor Co and formed the WILLIAM PRICE CO with Virgil Price as partner. In 1864 Virgil Price patented a sword hanger which was manufactured by EMERSON & SILVER . In 1868, D. B. Howell purchased the William Price Co. and Virgil Price operated his own company again until 1875. In 1873, Virgil Price had a design patent for the sword hilt and scabbard of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows. Many of the swords made by Virgil and William Price were society swords which usually has letters of the hilt or scabbard which identifies the society that used them (example - K of C for Knights of Columbus) and the blades are sometimes etched with the owners name.
    Sword blade markings and dates of manufacture:

    WILLIAM PRICE
    New York NY 1838-1858

    WILLIAM PRICE CO.
    New York NY 1858-1868

    VIRGIL PRICE
    New York NY 1838-1858
    and 1868-1875


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Now not surprising to me all things considered, there is no notice of them in Peterson, but are noted in the quite new fraternal bible that actually has a section regarding patents and Virgil's casting fittings directly on scabbards filed in 1873 pat #139,023

    More later

    Hotspur; several eagles have a lot of my attention this week

  14. #89
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    Hello George.

    I don't see the mend in the scabbard so have to say "well done!".

    Look about an inch and a half from the tip.
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  15. #90
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    Another of this variety got my attention and then brought into the fold here. This one with a silver plated scabbard and the remains of silver on the hilt. Since the hilt had already been rubbed off (some silver left in crevices, etc) and the scabbard still has lots of coverage, I decided to use some of the Silver Secret product I have left from other projects. The hilt, ferrule and pommel took the solution very well. I am cleaning up the scabbard finish a bit as well.

    This one has a rather odd blade length and comes in at 24" vs the two shorties I have at less than 20" and not the interim 26". The scabbard would fit my 26" one, as it is 27" throat to tip.

    The Hamilton Ames book lists one silver plated as masonic, so this one very well may have been meant for society. That book example is the only early one I can find. The scabbard also unfamiliar to me.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; very time I think I am done with more adoptions of these, another comes along that I seem to need
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  16. #91
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    Glenn,

    Would you say that the hilt and mounts are German silver or a "pot metal"?

    I do have one of the brass hilted/mounted variety in my collection with an eliptical blade--I just thought it was nice so I picked it up.
    Tom Donoho

  17. #92
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    Hi Tom

    This last one posted is definitely silver on brass, as Ames was doing silver electroplating by 1851. I had thought my very late piece with the winged eagle pommel was white brass/German silver but I was mistaken when prompted to take a closer look (and taking a knife to a portion of the guard). That one as well is plated brass but in that case looks pretty nickel/chrome. That had come up in the short swords thread from a week or so ago regarding the theatrical/fraternal short swords. I need to dig out my needle files to check some others to reveal the insides.

    Congratulations on your own adoption of one. What began as just one for me became a handful and now a small flock.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; two shorts, two mediums, a long and short spadroon blade pair and then one of the Horstmann urn pommels

  18. #93
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    I have owned and seen many 'costume' swords with extra long scabbards. Since most of these sword were worn and not actually used for anything, the long scabbard looked better as part of a costume/uniform. When drawn, no one would notice.

  19. #94
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    Not used for anything pretty much describes this one. The blade is unmarked and pristine, complete with the leather washer down in there. The shallow depth of plating also. There is wear through to the brass where the baldric rubbed it and also towards the toe. There was a full scale sword hilt with very short blade, along with a sectional scabbard we see occasionally and in the books. Those items carrying all the symbology of the masons (et al).

    Cheers

    Hotspur; a few more of the scabbard
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  20. #95
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    Yet another of these old patterns has come to the ranks. This one with a 25" blade and the shell guard. A bone grip on this one but similarly identical to many of the 1840s design.






    This is another that may well be later than the other cross hatch grips I have with ivory and the longer blade may point to the 1850s and beyond. A distinction I have seen in the Ames progression is as mentioned earlier in the thread is the evolution to a very barreled look to the grips, then later the more pear (or bottom heavy) grips after the Civil War. The Horstmann grips with a finer reeding with more flutes and as far as I have seen, all bone.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; when is too many not enough?

  21. #96
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    Here's a similar sword with a 24.75" blade and fluted bone grip.
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  22. #97
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    Thanks Mark

    That is another great example of the shell guard. The Hamilton books show this guard and grip combination on an example with a very defined Masonic decoration on the blade but so far, very few with the shell guard turn up with any blade etchings at all.

    Here is my group as of now. The two spadroon blades on our right.





    Far right is a very straight cylindrical grip and then towards the center, you can see how curved they get by the '60's.

    An edit to mention that if you open these in a new tab/window, they will appear larger. The board sizes them to suit narrower browsers/screens.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; I keep saying to myself there must be room for one more but just these are filling up what I have in the corners
    Last edited by Glen C.; 06-03-2012 at 09:51 AM.

  23. #98
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    Militia or cadet with the Ames NCO sword.

    Saw it on feeBay. He seems too young to be a militia NCO, so a cadet is more likely. Any Ideas?
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  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Graham View Post
    Saw it on feeBay. He seems too young to be a militia NCO, so a cadet is more likely. Any Ideas?
    I saw this, too, and wondered about it.

    Glen--that sword with the urn form pommel is interesting.
    Tom Donoho

  25. #100
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    I don't know enough about the photography to guess at the date but it is a backwards image. It must have been a trying pose, as the lad has the sword resting on a tunic button. Agreed, a cadet. Nice picture.


    As to the urn pommel, there has been some earlier mention of them on a previous page in this thread. My example was circulated through some west coast collectors and one of them Leonard Garigliano. There was some thought that this variant was targeted to the Turnvereins (Turners) but I have no other explanation aside from the swords appearing in photos of the group (not yet recovered). An internet search for turnverein militia shows the group (as a name) was active in joining federal effort but at the same time consider it was a large social group as well that may explain it as another early society sword vs a dedicated weapon of the war. My sword came and went through Steven Crain's hands (Gallowglass) and was listed a couple of times before the cost came down. So, the foliate counterguard may seem unique to a specific group but it is just a theory.


    As to the urn itself, look to sword #170 in Harold Peterson's bible and you will see a slim Horstmann artillery sword with a Weyersburg epee blade. The fitment aside from the urn is reminiscent of the use in continuing the style of late Widmann, sans the grape & leaf ferrules. There has been continuing a prime example of that Horstmann type listed on Ebay and for quite the price.


    Cheers


    Hotspur; there is a Time Life illustration with a soldier but where on my drives it is, I just don't know
    Last edited by Glen C.; 07-28-2012 at 12:53 PM.

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