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Thread: Sword engraving on a sword of Suleiman I

  1. #1

    Question Sword engraving on a sword of Suleiman I

    Gentlemen,

    this is an urgent case. We do need a translation, so hard to do. Most likely we are looking at verses from the Qur'an.

    Maybe one of the fellow members here can provide us with some help.

    Thank you very much in advance !

    Best regards;

    Hermann
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  2. #2
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    Hey Jerry,

    I would do my best to translate it if you post a full picture of the sword!

    The pictures you have posted are Upside down, so I will have to copy it in-order to translate

    (Not to sound like a grumpy person, but it would be nice-r if you put pictures of the full sword, makes us more enthusiastic about translating!)

    Regards,

    Abdullatif

  3. #3
    Hello Abdullatif,

    please forgive, but I can't post the entire sword. :-( The sword photos are belonging to a book project, and I'm bound by several legal contracts. I do perfectly understand what you mean and I would be happy to follow your recommendation, but I can't. I am very sorry to say that.

    But what I can say is that, strangely enough, the sword is Poulouar-hilted, which looks really different than what we find usually.

    Of course I would be more than happy to receive a translation and, also important, a hint how to place the photos properly.

    On the right photo the blade edge is on the lower side, so we thought it would be correct.

    Thank you in advance for any help.

    Best regards;
    Hermann aka Jerry
    Last edited by Jerry H.; 09-04-2011 at 05:53 AM.

  4. #4
    Hi Jerry,
    Some Persian hilts have quillions like a Pulowar, but the 'pommel' end is more like a Shamshir, is that what you mean?

  5. #5
    May I ask about the historical background of this sword? When you said "Sulieman I", do you mean Ottoman emperor Kanuni (Lawmaker) Sultan Suleiman Khan I?
    "The relationship between West(Occident) and East(Orient) is indeed an example of a relationship of power and domination. Orientalism is thus a style of thought based upon an ontological and epistemological distinction made between the Orient and the Occident. It is a Western style of dominating, restructuring and building hegemony over the Orient.İt is an accepted grid for filtering through the Orient into Western consciousness, into the general culture."
    From "Orientalism" by Edward Said

  6. #6
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    No worries Jerry, Its just more fun to see the full sword When will the book be released?

    I managed to translate the right picture, the squares are the same word repeated, its Rooh in arabic which means spirit (can also symbolise the angel gabriel. Atleast to an arab, not sure about persians) the verse is a Quranic verse; Here it is:

    http://www.islamawareness.net/Dua/kursi.html


    As for the other picture, well its a tough one, but can you take shots of the cartouches? also would appreciate clearer pictures of all inscriptions!

  7. #7
    Hi Gene,
    yes, exactly thats what it is.
    Rgds;
    Hermann

  8. #8
    Hello Sancar,
    yes, Suleiman the Lawgiver, the Magnificient.
    Rgds;
    H.

  9. #9
    Gentlemen,
    thank you very much for your kind help. It is always a pleasure to correspond with people having knowledge about our beloved edged weapons. Thank you for that.

    We have another juvenile delinquent we can't answer to. It's a German crusader sword from the 13th Century, captured probably by Mameluck warriors. They continued to use it as a weapon and stored it in Alexandria. We are not able to read this inscription. So maybe one of the fellow members here can provide us with an answer.

    Because of the book we will be happy to post and advertise it on this forum, the release of the book will be in Winter 2011.

    Thank you so much for your kind help !

    Rgds;
    Hermann
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    Last edited by Jerry H.; 09-04-2011 at 10:45 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry H. View Post
    Hello Sancar,
    yes, Suleiman the Lawgiver, the Magnificient.
    Rgds;
    H.
    Jerry, is it this sword?
    "The relationship between West(Occident) and East(Orient) is indeed an example of a relationship of power and domination. Orientalism is thus a style of thought based upon an ontological and epistemological distinction made between the Orient and the Occident. It is a Western style of dominating, restructuring and building hegemony over the Orient.İt is an accepted grid for filtering through the Orient into Western consciousness, into the general culture."
    From "Orientalism" by Edward Said

  11. #11
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    Nice sword
    Last edited by Vic Diehl; 09-04-2011 at 11:46 AM.

  12. #12
    Dear Sancar.
    as said, unfortunately I am not able to answer that question. If it would be the one, I could come probably in legal trouble, if not, my answer wouldn't be of any help regarding to the translation I have asked for. So this is a cul-de-sac for me. What I can say is, that even from that pic the hilt looks close to the one I have in mind.

    Sancer, you have allready helped me with swords, so forgive If I appear ungrateful, it is definitely not my intention.

    Teschekür ederim for your understanding.

    Kindest regards;
    Hermann aka Jerry

  13. #13
    Don't worry about it Jerry. I understand completely

    The reason I asked is because some of the blades from that era were rehilted later. And that type of "C" guards are popular in the 18th century. Another detail is, some swords were presented to sultan as heirloom or gifts from other countries. New inscriptions are written to these swords also. That can be misleading when you try to identify sword's origin and age. A sword that was identified as beloning to Suleiman I might actually be a much older sword from Iran, India or Mamluk. Think of a hypothetical 15th century tulwar, sent to Ottoman sultan as a gift in 17th century and rehilted in late 18th century. What a confusion!

    This kilij in picture I sent earlier is one of two famous swords that belongs to Kanuni Suleiman Khan. It is presented in the lobby of Chief of General Staff of Turkish army's office. It is a Turkish kilij but I suspect it to be rehilted at a later date. There are two verses of a poem inscribed to the blade, which very roughly translated as: "When you swing it your enemies fall to the ground, this sword is quenched in wine(meaning blood)" The poet is Kanuni himself.

    Kanuni's second famous kilij is this one: This one has a hilt and a cross-guard contemporary to Kanuni's era.
    "The relationship between West(Occident) and East(Orient) is indeed an example of a relationship of power and domination. Orientalism is thus a style of thought based upon an ontological and epistemological distinction made between the Orient and the Occident. It is a Western style of dominating, restructuring and building hegemony over the Orient.İt is an accepted grid for filtering through the Orient into Western consciousness, into the general culture."
    From "Orientalism" by Edward Said

  14. #14
    Dear Sancar,
    thanks again for your understanding.

    That makes a valuable and important point. Re-hilting swords. Yes, we have thought about this. When I had this one in my hand it seemed to me that the quillon to tang fit is nearly perfect and seamless, but you're right, adding a new hilt happened very often.

    We are in the process of finalizing the entire book. It would be a pleasure for me to introduce the book here on the forum asap in a different post. Though til that moment we are still in need for a few translations. So maybe one of the fellow members here can help us with the sword in #9.

    Thanks again for any thoughts.

    Regards;
    Hermann aka Jerry

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    Sancar:
    I am also pleased to see your detailed post. Thank you. Hermann and I fully understand re-hilted edged weapons, we are students of Japanese swords as well, and they cross many generations.
    Vic

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    14th century inscription

    Can anyone help us with this one

  17. #17
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    I think I have it
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sancar Ozer View Post
    Don't worry about it Jerry. I understand completely

    The reason I asked is because some of the blades from that era were rehilted later. And that type of "C" guards are popular in the 18th century. Another detail is, some swords were presented to sultan as heirloom or gifts from other countries. New inscriptions are written to these swords also. That can be misleading when you try to identify sword's origin and age. A sword that was identified as beloning to Suleiman I might actually be a much older sword from Iran, India or Mamluk. Think of a hypothetical 15th century tulwar, sent to Ottoman sultan as a gift in 17th century and rehilted in late 18th century. What a confusion!

    This kilij in picture I sent earlier is one of two famous swords that belongs to Kanuni Suleiman Khan. It is presented in the lobby of Chief of General Staff of Turkish army's office. It is a Turkish kilij but I suspect it to be rehilted at a later date. There are two verses of a poem inscribed to the blade, which very roughly translated as: "When you swing it your enemies fall to the ground, this sword is quenched in wine(meaning blood)" The poet is Kanuni himself.

    Kanuni's second famous kilij is this one: This one has a hilt and a cross-guard contemporary to Kanuni's era.
    Hi to everyone,
    A short note;
    For the first sword; Actually the C type hilts are generally belong to arabian peninsula and sometimes refer to North-east africa but not to Turkish-Ottoman type in any period. Maybe it was a matter of taste to owner or rehilter but not popular in Turkish-Ottoman style.
    For the second sword; The hilt and a cross-guard are definetly NOT contemporary to Kanuni's era. They are absolute persian types and used for centuries -before and after the Suleiman Khan- maybe a gift -suspect that through the blade geometry- or a rehilted 15-16 century sword.
    As a matter of fact most of Ottoman swords rehilted pieces because of the tang and hilt structure of the Ottoman style swords.
    Thank you.
    Last edited by A. Serdar; 09-13-2011 at 02:14 AM.

  19. #19
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    Hermann and I are wrapping up our book this week and hoping some of the experts on this forum can help with a couple of inscriptions listed above.
    Vic

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    Hey guys,

    Sorry it took me a while to reply. The inscription that Vic have linked says: حبس الحداد كرده habs alHaddad kardah (?) I think it means inscriped/work of Kardah (?) the blacksmith. But this inscription is strange to me (could be done by a non-arab, most likely) because of the use of "habs" which means to withhold or to cage (someone or something) in arabic, usually. Here it seems that the smith have used Habs to mean inscriping.

    Am not sure about the name btw, I may have got it wrong and it is non-arab so cant be sure

  21. #21
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    Alnakas:
    Thank you for this. I have been told by a number of language specialists that translating very old Arabic is an invitation to argument. This short inscription has been literally around the world and no one but you would even make an attempt -- Hats off to you. This inscription is on an early Mamluk broad sword dated around 1250 CE.
    Again thank you for your efforts on our behalf. I think all of you will enjoy the book we are finishing up. 320+ pages of the best photographs we could make of these edged weapons. The book will be published by Schiffer Publishing so it will get a lot of exposure. We are planning on a few pages of what is called in the business a double gate fold out, which some swords will be across 4 pages and when you open them up they will be life size. More later. Again thanks. Vic

  22. #22
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    Vic:

    I do not think this is old arabic, its not even "pure" arabic. Most likely its effected by the language of the mamluk who wrote it. Keep in mind that mamluks are non-arabs
    Last edited by A. Alnakas; 09-13-2011 at 09:38 AM. Reason: Added sentence.

  23. #23
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    This is a most complicated subject. Thanks !! Any thoughts on the longer inscription near the top? This is from a captured European Knightly sword that was taken in Palestine.

  24. #24
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    Vic, sorry I cant read that. Will need better pictures or to examine it in person.

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    Better?

    Better pic
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