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Thread: US Model 1902 unusual variations

  1. #1
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    US Model 1902 unusual variations

    I hope this is the first of many contributions.
    A few years ago I picked this M02 variation up at the Mansfield (Ohio) Civil War Show. This event is usually held on the first weekend in May. It is a must for anyone who has an interest in US militaria.
    Made in (I think) Germany for Ridabock, New York (1888-1966). The blade has the Celtic interlace etching found on M02s marked Ridabock (and others) France. The scabbard has brass mountings (and blade etching) like those on a type 3 US M1872 Artillery Officers saber marked Shannon, Miller & Crane, New York (1867-1896) in my collection.
    Is this another example of using up left over parts?
    Does anyone want to see M02 lodge swords? The are several in The American Fraternal Sword book and I have some in my collection.
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    Tim,

    Certainly a good idea for a new thread. Yes, I would like to see some of the fraternal sword variations of the M1902. I remember seeing a M1902 with the blade etched to an automobile salesman on ebay a couple of years ago. I guess he got it for waging war on the salesmen of the competition or some such thing. So, anything is possible.
    "You can't please everyone, so you have to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

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    Talk about a variation.

    This is a "budget" M1902 was made by M.C.Lilley. It has the solid brass grip and (drum roll please) a M1852 Civil War era U. S. Navy blade. It has been ground down to fit the scabbard. Possibly made for a naval cadet program. I have another example of a navel cadet M1902 (sort of) sword. I am half temped to dismount the blade and see where it was made. I bet there is a Weyersberg king's head under there.
    This is another example of ACW USN and USMC blades mounted in the 20th Century by Lilley.

    Do our brothers across the pond have examples of older unused blades being mounted 50-60 years later on completely inappropriate swords?
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    Last edited by T. Graham; 12-06-2011 at 08:02 AM.

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    Tim,

    Your composite M1902 Army Officer and M1872 Cavalry Officer Saber is certainly an unusual variation. Verrry interrresting... as Pat Paulson use to say.

    Here is another interesting one along this vein. It is an absolutly standard M1872 Cavalry Officer Saber that has been seemingly modified to meet the general requirements of the M1902 Saber for all Army Officers. This one has an 1872 bright nickel plated regulation steel scabbard but the gilt brass fittings have been nickel plated as well. The gilt brass 1872 regulation hilt has also been dull nickel plated in the same manner as the scabbard fittings. The normal regulation shagreen covered grip on this sword has instead a black leather wrap. It seems this particular sword was an attempt to make this sword look more like the new M1902 Army Officer Saber. Not really a composite variation like yours but a look-alike.

    Perhaps done to sell as a society sword or perhaps to sell to a mounted officer who wished to retain his old style sword by bringing it more into compliance with the new 1902 regulations?
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    One more variation of the M1902 in the form of a fancy presentation. This sword has heavily decorated fittings and the guard is very similar to the M1872 Mounted Officer Saber as shown above. In fact, the guard has the same motifs as the M1872 but it has one more branch than the regulation M1872 does. At any rate, the similarities are clear.

    George
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    Hello George, I think it is just a nickel plated M1872. I have an even fancier one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Graham View Post
    Hello George, I think it is just a nickel plated M1872. I have an even fancier one.
    I agree that this is very probable. Really more of an unusual variation of the M1872 that just looks (kinda sorta) like the general M1902 description/regulations.

    OK then, here is an unusual composite of the M1902 and the M1872 Artillery Officer Saber for your thread. The P guard of the M1872 has been added to the brass hilt of the M1902. The scabbard uses a frog and the blade is plain and unetched. These have been discussed before and all of these that I have seen have been items of issue with rack numbers on the top of the guard. My best guess is that these were used by some military academy or school. Any thoughts on who might have assembled these?

    George
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    The 1902 "artillery" saber

    Here is my example with a 1907 dated frog which has to predate the saber. What else, could this frog have been used with?
    I am sure they were made by M.C. Lilley Co., but I can only guess they were made in the 20's. This one also has a rack number. The shape of the grip and the cadet type frog hook are like Lilley's.
    They are not common, but a fanatic 02 collector should be able to get one.
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    nvm

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    Ok, what is is nvm?

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    nvm = never mind.

    I thought I had something to add, but then realized I didn't, and there's no way to delete a post.

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    Tim,

    M.C.Lilley Co. sounds right to me on the 1902 "Artillery" Sabers.

    As to the 1907 arsenal made frog, I think the US Arsenals made these for some extended period of time. My best guess is that this frog was not made for this particular sword but I suppose it certainly could have been used with it. I have an undated one of these frogs that is black. I would think the arsenal made frogs would have been used with either the 1840 NCO sword, the 1840 Musician sword, or the 1872 style Staff Sergeant swords well post CW.

    Here are some pix of a couple of my US Arsenal made frogs.

    George
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    That makes sense. But were the M60 type NCO swords regulation in the US Army? Was Rock Island providing leather items to National Guard and Militia units? Has anyone seen a post 1902 photo of a regular Army NCO or musician with a sword? This frog would work with the M1902 field leather belt. The M1840 NCO sword would be rather uncomfortable to wear vertically. The traditional baldric carries it an a angle. The Horstmann version of the M1840 has an angled down counter guard so it can be worn vertically.

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    OK, here is another unusual variation of the Model 1902 Officer Sabre. This one is the M1902 worn by Philippine Army Officers during the roughly ten year time frame (that includes WWII) that the Philippines were a US Commonwealth. It seems that the Philippine Army still wears a variation of this sword but it is a bit different and fairly crude in appearance and finish.

    Notice the Philippines Commonwealth seal and the US flag incorporated into the blade etching template. A sword from the US Colonial period just prior to WWII.
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    Philippine Military Academy saber

    Hello George, Does the above Philippine saber have a ridge on the knuckle guard and is Germany marked on it? The etching pattern is in the Eickhorn style.
    The German made Philippine Constabulary sabers are not Marked Germany. I think the US tariff laws did not apply to the Philippines.
    The attached photos are for a rather crude but somewhat gaudy, locally made 02, for a private, I think, military school.
    Does it ring a school bell with anyone?
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    [QUOTE=T. Graham;1163467]Hello George, Does the above Philippine saber have a ridge on the knuckle guard and is Germany marked on it? The etching pattern is in the Eickhorn style.
    The German made Philippine Constabulary sabers are not Marked Germany. I think the US tariff laws did not apply to the Philippines.QUOTE]

    The Philippine Army saber does have a ridge on the knuckle guard. It is not "Germany" marked but it is surely a German made sword. The only marking is the depressed "Proof" disc that says "Proved" with an "H" in the center. I wondered if that might be a Holler or Horster mark but the etching style is very Eickhorn-like. I think you are correct that the US tariff and import laws did not apply to the Philippines.

    The blade is nicely engraved with the officer's name but I have had no luck identifying him as it seems to be a common Filipino name.
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    Another unique 02

    The knuckle guard ridge indicates a pre WWII saber.

    This unusual 02 was made for the Catholic benevolent order of Modern Woodmen of America. The blade is marked Germany on the tang.
    The details tell men this sword was made by M.C. Lilley or Lilley-Ames. I think Lilley continued to used the Ames name after the merger.
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    Last edited by T. Graham; 12-19-2011 at 09:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Graham View Post
    The attached photos are for a rather crude but somewhat gaudy, locally made 02, for a private, I think, military school.
    Does it ring a school bell with anyone?
    Pontifical and Royal University of Santo Tomas, The Catholic University of the Philippines.

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    Thanks for the info. This University must have an ROTC program.

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    Another unusual M1902

    I can only assume that this unmarked, 7/8 scale saber was made for a military school. The grip is horn. It is likely pre WWI. I could take a photo with a standard 02 next to it.
    Does anyone have any thoughts about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Graham View Post
    Thanks for the info. This University must have an ROTC program.
    They do.

    And they wear bearskin hats, which I would think would be rather hot in Manila...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Scott View Post
    They do.

    And they wear bearskin hats, which I would think would be rather hot in Manila...
    I am a member of the Cleveland Grays. I have a French style bearskin Shako which I used to wear on parade. The bear skin is over a wicker frame and are light weight. The large interior space does not get hot. These were made in France in the 1890's. The bear skin is from Russia. They all had a metal carrying can. The British bearskin has a different shape.
    Last edited by T. Graham; 12-20-2011 at 10:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. Graham View Post
    I can only assume that this unmarked, 7/8 scale saber was made for a military school. The grip is horn. It is likely pre WWI. I could take a photo with a standard 02 next to it.
    Does anyone have any thoughts about it.
    I would agree that your 7/8 scale sword is a cadet sword for a military school as you suggest. I know that Bannerman sold these little guys in the form of Cavalry sabres in about this scale.

    Here is another smaller M1902 Officer Sabre that is 27" overall with the scabbard. I think this size of sword would be considered a Kindersabel (child's sword) because of the size and construction. The mild steel blade is blunt and has no edge or fuller so the little soldier would not put his eye out as his mother feared. The hilt construction is a one-piece casting with black painted grips and the guard only has three bars but it is clearly a rendition of the M1902 for the kiddies.
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  24. #24
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    not sure how odd this one is in the scheme of the one's already posted, but it's the oddest one in my collection.

    Brass guard and scabbard fittings,leather covered grip and straight,un-marked blade.





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    Another not really unusual M1902 cadet.

    I think, the above 02 type is another attempt by Lilley-Ames to create an inexpensive sword for naval cadets.
    The swords below were made by Eickhorn. Valley Forge Military Academy and Pennsylvania Military Collage converted the traditional cadet sword carried by NCOs into an officers version, by replacing the hilt. This was very easy to do and it saved the parents the expense of a new sword. As far as I know, this was unique to these schools.
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    Last edited by T. Graham; 12-21-2011 at 03:38 PM.

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