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Thread: "Dove head "Artillery saber

  1. #1

    "Dove head "Artillery saber

    Afternoon all...I have two of them old artillery German sabers a.k.a. "Bluechers ." They were made for quite a few years.One of them is a W80 (1880) and the other one is W12
    (1912).I would like to display them with the correct sword knot . There seems to some different ones I can possibly use.Hoping you can tell me which ones that i can use.
    When did they stop making these ugly beasts? and Could I possibly use a couple of them from the Weimer era ? Thanks for your help .... Bill

  2. #2
    Good question Bill, I've got a W96, and I'd like to know too.

    What are the other markings on yours?
    Mine was issued to the Bavarian Cavalry.
    I assume there is a distinct knot for the various separate elements in the Imperial army?
    Last edited by Gene Wilkinson; 12-07-2011 at 11:16 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Your enlisted man's sword would require the style of knot known as a Faustriemen. It is a knot with a plain leather strap and a colored slider, crown and ball to be correct. The specific coloring of the knot is dependent upon the unit it was issued to as well as the time it was made/issued.
    "You can't please everyone, so you have to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

  4. #4
    Hi Gene returning your question mine is marked on the cross guard with a 35. A . 5. 56 and I assume it is a artillary sword that was made by alex coppel in 1880 . I wish i new more about it. my other one was made by weyersberg in 1915 not 1912 with no other markings on it.
    Do you now for how many years they made them type of swords for ?? it seems like quite a few years !!
    In Geo. Wheelers on page 45 he shows that type of sword witch looks like a newer sword knot (WWll)?
    also in his book p.287 he shows another sword with a later style knot? that i could possibly use

    For how many years did they make that style of sword say from mid 1820 ish thru mid 1930 ish ????
    thanks guys for your help Bill

  5. #5
    Hi Bill,


    A helpful forumite used "Imperial German Regimental Markings" by Jeff Noll, to shed some light on mine.

    You are lucky to have enough markings to actually pin it. Mine has stamps that are... not so helpful!

    I would agree that by the sounds of it yours is marked 'A' for 'Artillerie'.
    Now, according to information I recieved (thanks Greg) on the subject of the numerals:

    "In Jeff Noll's book, he states "there are three types or styles of numbers or numerals found with Regimental markings. They are large numbers (approx. 3 mm high), small numbers (approx. 2 mm high), and Roman numerals. The large numbers generally identify the organization (regiments) and units (companies). The small numbers identify particular Waffe or weapon. However, some Regimental markings have all the same height numbers." With regards to Gene's sword, with just a "5", this would be the 5th Battery, Uhlan Regiment or 5th ???? in the Weimar era Reichwehere."


    Mine is also Alex Coppel.

    The markings on mine are the Crown over 'W' and 96. So pattern type 1896, W for Kaiser Bill.
    The Crown over 'L' apparently indicates Bavarian Cavalry, and the '02' is the issue date...
    So just in time for the 'Venezuela Crisis'!!

    I do know that there were various revisions of this sword through it's long period in service.
    At some point near to the beginning of the 20thC the grip was changed to a synthetic (bakerlite) type.
    Mine has a cord wrapped wood grip with leather shrunk over it.
    These seem to disintegrate fairly easily.
    My grip has some wear but is a lot better than most I've seen.
    These were certainly in service for a good while.
    I was also told:
    "The mark which points to post-WW1 usage is the mark on the underside of the guard. This is called a Waffenampt and it's typical of Weimar/3rd Reich weapons. This would indicate that the sword was accepted into the post-WW1 German army. During this time the regimental markings were greatly simplified as the Weimar period Reichweher became the 3rd Reich Wehermact."

    I'll add pictures to illustrate.
    How does it compare to yours.

    Best
    Gene
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  6. #6
    The chap who gave me the info on the marking recommended these books:

    Swords of Germany, 1900/1945, John R. Angolia (1988),R.James Bender Publishing. ISBN No. 0-912138-40-8

    Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany Volume 1, Ltc.(RET.) Thomas M Johnson, Thomas T. Wittmann (1988), Johnson Reference Books, ISBN No. 0-9600906-0-6

    The Bayonet, a history of knife and sword bayonets 1850-1970, Anthony Carter, John Walker, (1974), Charles Scribner and Sons, New York,
    ISBN0-684-13931-8

    The Imperial German Regimental Marking. Jeff Noll (1988), privately published by Jeff Noll, Ventura CA.

  7. #7
    WOW thanks Gene for the overload of info !!!! I got my info on my sword from a book a by john L Harrel 1979 it is a book on Regimental Steins and it lists all units of everything example any german stein out the you can probely find it in this book also a few marked bayonets i have that are marked like that i traced it to the company that is was issued in,, this book lists clothing depots , imperial navy ,artillery units , foot artillery regs an etc. also there is one other book that nay be useful germany's army and navy of the 19th century by Gustav A Sigel it lists breakdowns of the army to like third army corps berlin fourth army corp madeburg and the list goes on... this my also help you again thanks for the info Bill

  8. #8
    Hi Bill,
    Mostly plagiarized as I say, but thanks mate.

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