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Thread: Swords & Sabers US Military Schools, Academies and Inistitutes.

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    Swords & Sabers US Military Schools, Academies and Inistitutes.

    The unusual M1902 saber thread seems to be headed in this direction, so I think it is time to start a dedicated thread. Military School (MS) swords cover a very wide range. They include the M1860 series in its many variations. The post ACW NCO types and of course the M1902.

    The first specific USMA sword was issued in the 1840s. I will post one soon.

    The example below is the 'traditional' style, military academy sword first used at the USMA at West Point about 1875.

    This 'The' M.C. Lilley Co.,Columbus, Ohio sword was made for Agusta Military Academy 1880-1984 around 1900. The 'The' came into use about 1875, so it will help date.

    It may have been noted, that I collect military schools swords. I have lots of them.
    Many sword collectors have them and just do not know it. If you think it maybe a military school sword, post it.
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    Tim,

    Another good idea for a thread. I sure there are some some nice military school swords residing in member collections.

    Here is one from mine. A M1902 Officer style sword from Millersburg Military Institute. This military school was founded in 1893 but the sword is post WWII. It has the proper postwar black sword knot when the "brown shoe Army" changed over to black leather accouterments. This sword has an outstanding art deco style eagle on the blade but pictures are difficult due to the highly reflective plated blade.

    George
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    I have a question re: the early West Point swords, described as eaglehead pommel epee.

    I have encountered both yellow and plated white examples. The yellow mounts do seem to fit those 1830s guideline but I am still not positive of these we find with the emblem of the Pallas Athena helmet and sword as shown in the 20th century coat of arms. The nickle plated examples I have encountered (and it may be the same one circulating) makes me wonder if it was later plated to be used in service later in life in white mounts.


    Are they West Point swords at all? Different langet decorations do come up with other traits of this pattern of American epee but all seem to be of a French style remade for the 1830s and produced in Solingen.

    click for bigger


    Cheers

    Hotspur; there is also an excerpt of a discussion at one point about ssssssnake hilted eaglehead pommel special presentation swords for West Point
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    Last edited by Glen C.; 01-10-2012 at 02:33 PM.

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    More on custom etched blades

    Quote Originally Posted by George Wheeler View Post
    Tim,

    Another good idea for a thread. I sure there are some some nice military school swords residing in member collections.

    Here is one from mine. A M1902 Officer style sword from Millersburg Military Institute. This military school was founded in 1893 but the sword is post WWII. It has the proper postwar black sword knot when the "brown shoe Army" changed over to black leather accouterments. This sword has an outstanding art deco style eagle on the blade but pictures are difficult due to the highly reflective plated blade.

    George
    Hello George, I have one like this, but with the smooth grip strap and a slotted tang screw. Eickhorn/Meyer made a lot of these custom etched blades for many schools. I have a few more that I will post. They started making this type in the 1950's. Then Meyer went to Spain and they now make them there. The 'traditional' cadet swords can have this feature. Below is a Millersburg 'traditional' from the 50's. Millersburg M I closed in 2006

    There are pre WWII custom school swords and sabers, but not as elaborate.

    When you shoot at something shiny, shoot at a slight angle. The best way is to shoot outside on a cloudy day, or in the shade.

    I know that collectors really do not want to believe this, but at least ONE THIRD of swords made for the US military market, went to military schools. If you have a really beat up M1902, it was issued to cadet officers year after year. Swords suffering from "Brasso" abuse were likely used at a military school. Brasso should be banned. An M1902 bought buy a US Army or National Guard Officer would not be used enough to suffer much abuse, but would suffer because of poor storage.
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    Last edited by T. Graham; 01-11-2012 at 09:23 AM.

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    Glen,

    I don't know the answer to your question but it is certainly a good one. I think there is a lot that we do not know about the early swords of the US Military Academy at West Point.

    Along that line, here is a named somewhat generic "Military Academy" sword. I suppose there would be no way to know if this cadet attended West Point or some other academy without finding his name on some obscure roster. Some of these have the sword and helm design as seen on your sword but it seems use of this device was not limited to the USMA.

    George
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    A correct and early USMA West Point sword

    It is thought that this model was adopted about 1875. It is shown on page 160 in the Ames 1882 catalog as a Military Regulation model 543.

    This is the earliest 'traditional" USMA sword in my collection. Made by The M.C. Lilley Co., Columbus, Ohio. It is personalize 'John S. Upham', who was Class of 1903.
    It lacks the the helmet/sword logo. The first use of the logo I know of is 1899 on the newly adopted shako plate. By the way. before 1922 the helmet faced to it's left. (A'la, the pre 1941 USN eagle.)

    These swords are easy to take apart. I noticed some interesting features;
    1. The tang threads were sawn down the middle and spread apart. This help lock the pommel on and discouraged disassembly.
    2. The blade and maybe the scabbard were made in Germany.
    3. The, mostly gone, gold finish is not a plating or wash, but a gold enamel or lacquer. I am going to see if I can reproduce that gold finish. Anyone have any ideas?

    I am going to declare a RULE. If a traditional cadet sword does not have the initials U.S.M.A and or the helmet/sword logo, it is not a West Point sword. If it is unmarked for any other school, then it is a generic traditional cadet sword. The vast majority of cadet swords are generic.
    I personally own five USMAs and have photos of 4 more including a special.

    I have lots of cadet swords and sabers, are there any requests? How about belts and buckles?
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    Bring 'em on, I say! The more examples of buckles and belts that come along can distinguish them for others and keep them from falling into the ACW bucket of misconceptions.

    In my travels yesterday I came across a short essay from Cole that is really not of this topic but while I think about it.

    http://www.history.army.mil/html/mus...ms/survey.html

    I had also encountered some old books on Google regarding West Point history and am still trying to retrace to my thoughts a couple of weeks ago about description of pre 1840 West Point swords. Thayer's presentation eagle I already know about and was done by Ames (I think). Abstracting from what I remeber reading about the 1830s eagleheads was just a sword of uniform character in yellow mounts and and eagle pommel.

    There is a blurb on a few sites regarding the direction of the helmet and eagle crest. I think it was on the USMA org site I had been reading about some general histories and it had been prompted when coming across an old thread from forumite David Lewis Smith and his museum visit.

    http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...hoto-Intensive!!!!!

    http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...um-Visit-redux

    The little Hickox book and the Hamilton history fopr Ames describe the form that becomes the sword we know as the USMA standard. I do though find reference to instructors swords and rpresentation swords as mentioned. One 1902 was listed recently as a graduating presentation sword for an officer. It was unclear whether that is a standard or a personal purchase for the graduate.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; Shako plates are another sideline I look at back in the federal period while coveting the crescents
    Last edited by Glen C.; 01-13-2012 at 08:29 AM. Reason: typos

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    While I'm wondering out loud; Are there any South Carolina Citadel swords of note?

  9. #9

    West Point Cadet Sword M-1872 to 1922 Complete History

    West Point Cadet Sword M-1872 to 1922 Complete History
    1868 to 1922 Model 1872

    I just want to start by stating the importance of this sword. The years it took to for the two major players Col. A. B Benton, Chief of Ordnance and Head of the National Armory in Washington and Gen A. B Dyer who was the man in Charge of the Springfield Armory and years it took then to design, develop and modify the redesign of parts from the regulation Musicians sword and using the Ames Scabbard they starting in working in 1860 and transforming it in to what it really is today. This was not a simple project the materiel specification are mind blowing below is the officially complete description.

    Approximately 30" long. The guard does not extend to the pommel to protect the hand, as is the case of the sabers, as the nature of its use does not necessitate such protection. The blade is made up of high carbon , oil hardening steel, forged, tempered, and straightened. It is nickel plated and buffed, the blade being about 6/10 inch in width at the guard and tapering to a narrow point at front end. The guard is made of bronze and has rectangular slot for shank of blade. It is gold plated and burnished on all polished surfaces. It is cast with an ornamental design of a coiled serpent on each end, forming an enlargement at the extreme ends of guard. The center of the guard contains an ornamental design with the initials M.A. about 3/4 inch high. The inside is cored to fit the shank of blade. The grip is made of nickel bronze. It is formed to fit the hand, with grooves running around the outside having the appearance of being wound with small cord. The pommel is made of gold-plated bronze with polished surfaces burnished. It is screwed on to shank of blade, securely holding guard and pommel in place after they are assembled to blade. The outside has an ornamental design of a spread eagle. The inside is counter-bored and tapped to take the end of the blade shank. The washer is made of leather, 0.07 inch thick. It is placed between the guard and scabbard to act as a buffer when sword is placed in scabbard. Complete with 29 1/2" metal scabbard - Army #4440. Scabbard is made of sheet steel, 0.035 inch in thickness, formed, and edges brazed together. It is polished, nickel plated, and buffed. It has a scabbard tip which is made of bronze, polished, and gold plated and burnished. The front end of the scabbard tip is slotted and the scabbard tip protector, which is made of sheet brass is brazed into it. The scabbard tip fits over the lower end of scabbard and is held in place by two small screws. The upper band is made of bronze, gold plated, all of the polished surfaces being burnished. The scabbard hook, which is also bronze, gold plated and buffed, is brazed to band. The scabbard linings, of which there are two, are made of wood and prevent scratching of nickel on the sword blade when inserting and withdrawing from scabbard. They also hold sword in place and prevent rattling. The mouthpiece is fastened to the scabbard by two screws, which also secure the upper band to the scabbard. The screws, of which there are four, two for upper band and two for scabbard tip, are made of brass, gold plated and burnished.proximately 30" long. The guard does not extend to the pommel to protect the hand, as is the case of the sabers, as the nature of its use does not necessitate such protection. The blade is made up of high carbon , oil hardening steel, forged, tempered, and straightened. It is nickel plated and buffed, the blade being about 6/10 inch in width at the guard and tapering to a narrow point at front end. The guard is made of bronze and has rectangular slot for shank of blade. It is gold plated and burnished on all polished surfaces. It is cast with an ornamental design of a coiled serpent on each end, forming an enlargement at the extreme ends of guard. The center of the guard contains an ornamental design with the initials M.A. about 3/4 inch high. The inside is cored to fit the shank of blade. The grip is made of nickel bronze. It is formed to fit the hand, with grooves running around the outside having the appearance of being wound with small cord. The pommel is made of gold-plated bronze with polished surfaces burnished. It is screwed on to shank of blade, securely holding guard and pommel in place after they are assembled to blade. The outside has an ornamental design of a spread eagle. The inside is counter-bored and tapped to take the end of the blade shank. The washer is made of leather, 0.07 inch thick. It is placed between the guard and scabbard to act as a buffer when sword is placed in scabbard. Complete with 29 1/2" metal scabbard - Army #4440. Scabbard is made of sheet steel, 0.035 inch in thickness, formed, and edges brazed together. It is polished, nickel plated, and buffed. It has a scabbard tip which is made of bronze, polished, and gold plated and burnished. The front end of the scabbard tip is slotted and the scabbard tip protector, which is made of sheet brass is brazed into it. The scabbard tip fits over the lower end of scabbard and is held in place by two small screws. The upper band is made of bronze, gold plated, all of the polished surfaces being burnished. The scabbard hook, which is also bronze, gold plated and buffed, is brazed to band. The scabbard linings, of which there are two, are made of wood and prevent scratching of nickel on the sword blade when inserting and withdrawing from scabbard. They also hold sword in place and prevent rattling. The mouthpiece is fastened to the scabbard by two screws, which also secure the upper band to the scabbard. The screws, of which there are four, two for upper band and two for scabbard tip, are made of brass, gold plated and burnished.

    Not only did it take years to approve.

    The instruction manual alone which explains how it is to be assembled in it's self was over 15 pages. The technical drawing are works of art.

    I will dispelled one rumor that this sword was never contracted out to the Ames mfg co. They did make one for private sale only. There was and always has been a very close relationship between between two for years. the fact that Ames made most but not all the model 1839/40 up in to the mid 1860's. I have to state this that there is no records that this item was ever contracted out, the Springfield production records and dates match delivery dates to the academy. the Ames records do not show official order's or delivery dates for this item. I am more included to believe that the first contract went to the Rock Island Armory for the model M-1922 and Ames was the second.

    Manufactured by the Springfield Armory, Springfield, Ma. Produced from 1868 up to 1920 exclusively for West Point Cadet Book Store exclusively by the Springfield Armory.
    Using the official description of sword as described in the 1878 printing of Springfield Ordnance Memorandum # 22 G.P.O. as shown above.

    Markings:
    Cross bar: M.A.
    Blade Ricasso stamped U.S. Armory Springfield
    Blade is etched with U.S.M.A."

    both from the Springfield Armory. Please note that the head of the Pommel scroll with sword knot hole faces to the left as you view the face of the M-1872 sword.
    This was changed on the Model-1922 to faced to the right.

    Photo's of this change can be found on page 68 of Fredrick Todds book cadet Gray and another example is on page 10 figure 3 in Burton A Kellerstedt book Swords and sabers of the Armory at Springfield
    though this can be confusing as the discrimination of photo # 3 describes another sword and does not match the discrimination.

    The Springfield Armory was the only official maker of this sword till 1920 and is stamped Springfield Amory on the Ricasso.

    The Armory production records show that 253 Cadet Swords plus a few pattern samples were manufactured between 1868 to 1920 and used to 1923.
    There was another order for 100 scabbards to replace the one that were needed.

    Dates made and the number produced by the Springfield Armory.
    1868 - 36
    1874 - 25
    1876 - 28
    1880 - 14
    1882 - 50
    1893 - 50
    1914 - 50
    Total: 253
    1920 - 100 scabbards only

    That's 48 years in service for 253 swords. The swords were polished so often that most blade stampings were just worn off.
    In 1920 the Springfield Amory stopped making this sword and then it was produced starting in 1922 under contract to private makers.
    The first two makers were Ames and the Rock Island Armory which put a matching serial number on each sword and scabbard.
    It would be very hard to a find virgin sword that came from the West Point Cadet Store because The bookstore returned the swords to Springfield who broke it down so the best parts were used to rebuilt the sword from its parts to be reissued again and again.
    This sword was never sold to cadets.

    Presentation Swords and other special swords were custom made swords produced by many manufactures Like Lilley-Ames Company of Columbus, Ohio, Rock Island Armory, Rock Island, IL, M.S. Meyers N.Y.C. N.Y., Gemsco Inc. New York, Horstmann Company Philadelphia PA as well as a few more.

    Cadets were free to purchase and use there own swords, which they privately ordered from one of the many unofficial makers listed above.
    Officially this is a copy and is not a officially issued sword.
    It would be very hard to find a M-1872 Springfield as the few that are around are owned by museums.
    There were a limited number of custom made swords produced.
    Unless the blade is etched with with USMA or West Point Military Academy it would be impossible to prove it was used or made for a cadet at West Point.

    Name Swords
    Sword blades engraved with the cadets name are called named sword and less than 20% were made this way.
    This was much more expensive, most could not afford the extra money to buy it new.
    The condition of the M-1872 was not getting any better, so there was a good market among cadets to buy used swords and resell it to another cadet after graduation.
    Name swords could not be resold.

    Swords of tradition
    It would not be uncommon that presentation swords used by high ranking cadet officers were passes down swords with special history to the cadet that takes their command the following year.
    The best examples would be the Regimental commanders, Drum Major, Color Guard and even down to Company commanders were given the honor to use this sword for as long as they have the position.
    Which would make them Swords of Honor.

    Cadets had no use for this type of sword in the Army, as officers, they carried the 1902 Army saber, so most cadets did not want to spend the money for a custom sword so they purchased a used one or took a issued one.


    Past makers
    Armory, Rock Island, IL
    Ames, Lilley Company
    M.C. Lilley & Company
    Lilley-Ames Company of Columbus, Ohio
    M.S. Meyers N.Y.C. N.Y.
    Gemsco Inc. New York
    Horstmann Company Philadelphia PA

    This article is 100% backed by references, and in unwritten tradition, If you would like to question the references or to the tradition please ask.
    Last edited by Andy Needle; 01-14-2012 at 09:52 PM. Reason: addition

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    Welcome aboard Andy

    Your post answers some of my own questions about presentation and named swords. ONe pair of named swords from the 20th century circulates as from two brothers. That listingis actually the only instance I had seen USMA cadet swords with names etched, so I am assuming they were private purchase and like from a family sending them off to the academy.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; I am pretty much a pre ACW collector but information on the board about later swords is always great to see and new knowledge to me

  11. #11
    Hi Hotspur,
    the way that I understand it, it was a wide open market until 1922 when the academy put there own logo on the sword in the way of their copyrighted crest into the center of the crossbar.
    After that everything went through the the cadet store or through issue, even custom presentation swords had to be ordered through the cadet book store, like the one given to each president.

    Family's were mighty proud to have one of there son's go to West Point, it does not surprise me that some family s even made payments because it means something to them and two named swords could even be Father and son or two Brothers.
    If it were not for the different makers there would be nothing from that time period. There is a good deal of difference between the quality from maker to maker as well as price.

    Remember that this is not any issued sword it's custom made, is it worth a lot of money, hell yes it is and that depends on the make and condition of the item. The fact that the blade is clearly marked is really the only true guide to it belonging to a West Point graduate.

    Thanks

    Andy; I've been collecting and processing information just on this swords history for years, I'm just now reaching out and sharing this and to open up and learn what I can.
    Last edited by Andy Needle; 01-14-2012 at 06:57 PM. Reason: correction

  12. #12
    West Point Sword flying sword blades
    There is a defect in some of the older newer sword because the specification where changed. The problem shows it's self unexpected surprising and in dangerous or perhaps deadly way.
    So the older the sword is the more likely the following will sooner or later happen again.
    You all got to know when the command is given to draw saber, the cadets all at once and with all the gun-ho that would be expected grab their sword and pull it straight out, before they retreat it to there shoulder the problem is with the Tang it just let's go and the blade is a projectile and the cadet is only holding a handle. They fly straight and true and would go right through you. Then when the command is given to return sabers you know that it goes down all at once as hard as they can slam it home. This makes it weaker for the next time it's drawn. Other than the very small point is know to just brakes off the sword. just makes one wonder.
    Last edited by Andy Needle; 01-14-2012 at 10:40 PM. Reason: edit correction

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    The Citadel

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen C. View Post
    While I'm wondering out loud; Are there any South Carolina Citadel swords of note?
    You have but to ask. This, unique to the Citadel, traditional cadet sword was made by Eickhorn for Meyer. The 'Germany' is hard to see and would be covered by a leather buffer. The year 1958 is etched next to the cadet's name.
    A rather funny thing is the hilt parts and the blade are all soldered together. Is this because of a 'fly apart' possibility? Another unusual feature is the molding on the top scabbard mount that is in relief between the hook and the throat. See the black arrow point. I have a lot of these sword and this is the only one with this molding.
    Are more photos desired?
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  14. #14
    Glen,
    M.S. Meyers made great swords, They were making swords for USMA during that time period. But this is not the run of the mill military academy sword, this is a great example of the type of top quality work that Meyers did would do.
    I'm not sure how the Citadel issued there swords or if they sold the swords to their cadets but I can tell you that I would be leaning towards your sword being a special order.
    Last note it was not uncommon for any military school to give out gifts to important guest or company commanders to get one as a gift from their command in that case it would be a custom Presentation sword like yours.
    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Needle View Post
    Glen,
    M.S. Meyers made great swords, They were making swords for USMA during that time period. But this is not the run of the mill military academy sword, this is a great example of the type of top quality work that Meyers did would do.
    I'm not sure how the Citadel issued there swords or if they sold the swords to their cadets but I can tell you that I would be leaning towards your sword being a special order.
    Last note it was not uncommon for any military school to give out gifts to important guest or company commanders to get one as a gift from their command in that case it would be a custom Presentation sword like yours.
    Andy
    Andy, In the 20th Century, N.S. Meyer, Horstmann, Gemsco, and others, were sword importers and distributors, not manufactures. In the pre WWII period, few swords were being imported from Germany, so Lilley-Ames was the source. I do have a VFMA or PMC officers sword that was made by Horster and imported by Eby, Philadelphia. In the immediate post war period L-A and C.E. Ward continued to supply the domestic market through Meyer, Gemsco etc. By the Mid 1950's, Eickhorn, Weyersburg, Kirshbaum Cie. (WKC) and Horster all of Soligen, Germany, took over the market. By the 1970's The same importers were bringing in Swords made byn Marto and Bermjeo out of Toledo, Spain.
    Last edited by T. Graham; 01-18-2012 at 12:49 PM.

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    Fly away cadet sword blades.

    I looked into the 'fly away blade' problem. This is a Weyersburg, Kirshbaum Cie., Solingen, Germany, made USMA that is 20-30 years old. Note, the small screw. It is NOT a set screw. It goes into the pommel through the grip and into a thick grip ring on the tang that also supports the pommel, so the silver plated grip does not have to. Note the pitting on the stainless steel blade where it is covered by the buffer. Reassembly requires that the grip ring be at the correct height so the holes line up.
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    Last edited by T. Graham; 01-17-2012 at 09:57 PM.

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    Fly away cadet sword blades, continued.

    This USMA was made by Eickhorn, Soligen, Germany for N.S. Meyer. This sword has a stainless blade and dates in the 1960's. This system is similar, but it does not have the internal grip band. The screw connects the pommel to the grip only. The washers, split washer and nut are still keeping things together. Remember take the screw completely out.
    Also Eickhorn uses the one piece throat and hook band. WKC uses two separate parts. similar to the original design.
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    Last edited by T. Graham; 01-18-2012 at 06:09 AM.

  18. #18

    Imported now but I feel that this should be American made.

    It's been years since there has been a US military Academy sword Made in America, all have been made overseas and imported.
    This Sword is sold for less than $150.00 to cadets at the Cadet store far below the real cost.
    I would love to see all United States Military Academy Swords made in America.
    Sold for a realistic price about $500 to $600 dollars.
    The problem is that no American Company is willing to submitted a bid the last time that it was put out for bid.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by T. Graham View Post
    I looked into the 'fly away blade' problem. This is a Weyersburg, Kirshbaum Cie., Solingen, Germany, made USMA that is 20-30 years old. Note, the small screw. It is NOT a set screw. It goes into the pommel through the grip and into a thick grip ring on the tang that also supports the pommel, so the silver plated grip does not have to. Note the pitting on the stainless steel blade where it is covered by the buffer. Reassembly requires that the grip ring be at the correct height so the holes line up.
    From what I understand is about 10 or so years ago the spec's were changed, and this is when the problem started. I know that there is a shortage and the Academy has been thinking about a new stronger sword but they have not put out the request yet.
    If you know of anyone here who could make them let me know and I'll pass it through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Needle View Post
    From what I understand is about 10 or so years ago the spec's were changed, and this is when the problem started. I know that there is a shortage and the Academy has been thinking about a new stronger sword but they have not put out the request yet.
    If you know of anyone here who could make them let me know and I'll pass it through.

    There is only one US sword maker and they could not make them. Their blades and scabbards are imported from SW Aisa and they would not be able to handle the quality or quantity. Sword making is a very specialized industry. WKC made swords are as good as can be made.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by T. Graham View Post
    WKC made swords are as good as can be made.
    I agree Imported by Marlow White.

    This is what I've been told, about 10 or so years ago the Spec's where changed by the Academy and KWC made the changes. There have been problems since and the Academy thoughs were to go back to it's original spec's.

    The only other thing I can say is they have been getting pressure to have it made in America. Because of what it is and what it stands for.

    I personally think that if they wanted to place an order with KWC they would of done so as there is shortage of them.

    The new issue is not a secret.

    When it will be made and sold it s another story, it's coming, the question is who is going to make it and what is it going to cost.

    When this happens I think the cadet store price will go up to $600.00.

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    When it will be made and sold it s another story, it's coming, the question is who is going to make it and what is it going to cost.

    When this happens I think the cadet store price will go up to $600.00.[/QUOTE]

    I am an entrepreneur and manufacturer with some Industrial engineering training, so I kind of know what it would take to make swords in the USA. I also did some consulting at the (current) Ames sword Co. and know their capabilities and manufacturing methods.

    Lets us make some rough assumptions.

    4000 cadets at West Point(WP), of which 600 carry swords, but 400 carry a sword for two years. Some buy, or are issued a used sword and some buy a souvenir sword.
    Estimated sword sales per year 300.
    Now figure in VMI and The Citadel at 2000 cadets total, with 300 sword carriers. Their total sales may be 200/year.
    Add in the 30 or so private military schools. average 300 cadets ea. , total 9000. But some do not carry rifles much less swords, plus some use a mix of M1902's and traditional cadet swords (TCS), some only TCS and some only M1902s. Total sales 500. But they are tight for cash, so no Made in USA swords for them.
    There may be a few public high school JROTC programs using the TCS, but no collage SROTC program I know uses them. So let's discount them.
    Rough estimated total 1000 TCSs. But, the tax payers will be only subsidizing the WP purchases, so 400 TCS is it, if one or more of the other schools participates.
    Most, if not all the private schools will prefer the Spanish swords. The market does not know the difference between a Spanish, German or good quality Indian made sword.

    Let's suppose that a US company is considering making a TCS at a $600 list price. Can WP buy direct from the manufacturer for $400 ea? The maker, being a nice patriotic fellow, will cost them out at $300 and have a $100 profit. That, times quantity of 400 (assuming other schools come on board) = $40,000. That will not cover the travel expenses of the CEO's mistress.
    I doubt that WP, being a US Gov't entity will be able to buy direct. All the sales in the past, have been through importers and distributors. Congress could make an exception here.

    I do not see it happening.
    Last edited by T. Graham; 01-20-2012 at 09:16 PM.

  23. #23
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    An interesting Virginia Military Institute sword.

    I have seen many photographs of cadets with Model 1860's, but this is the only M60 that I know of that can be connected to a particular school.
    This sword is a presentation grade Model 1860, made By The M.C. Lilley Co., Columbus, Ohio. The blade tang is marked 'Made in Germany", but I think it only applies to the blade and bare scabbard. Assembly would have been done in Columbus.
    Special features include: middle level presentation grade scabbard mountings and celluloid tortoise shell grip. The etching is a generic pattern. Because it lacks a 'to and from', it should be considered a personalized sword.
    This is very likely a cadet carry sword. If he was commissioned after graduation, he would need a model 1902.
    Note; not all the hilt parts are brass. The The lower part that holds the 'spring and fall' lock is a low pressure, zinc alloy die casting. The 'gilt' was painted on.
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by T. Graham; 01-20-2012 at 09:21 PM.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by T. Graham View Post
    I do not see it happening.
    I know what your saying is true but there is more to it than that.
    I will reply by private email in more detail.
    Last edited by Andy Needle; 01-21-2012 at 04:05 AM.

  25. #25
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    Hudson OH
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    The Lilley-Ames USMA M1922 made for Gemsco.

    This is the last USMA West point sword in my collection. Made by The Lilley-Ames Co. (L-A), just prior to WWII.

    Notable features:

    The USMA helmet & sword mark is a coined piece of copper soldered to the cross guard where the MA used to be. It had to be done this way, because fine sand castings and the skilled labor needed to finish the castings was not available.

    The pommel has a cast in bulk head that is tapped for the threaded tang. This required a sand core that had to be dug out.

    The blade has a nearly full length fuller. L-A must have had some blades left over from another line of swords. I have Eby marked TCS with an ACW NCO or Musician blade.

    These swords cost more to make than a M1902. They required considerable polishing and in this case, by an inept polisher. When you have a monopoly, who needs quality control.

    99% of the 'gold' finish is gone. It seems not have worn or been polished off, but just vanished.

    Note: the Phillips head screws, which are correct for this period.

    There is a hex nut to tie the grip and cross guard to the blade. This, would hopefully prevent blade 'flinging'.
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by T. Graham; 01-22-2012 at 10:15 PM.

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