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Thread: a new montante text

  1. #1

    a new montante text

    The fellows of the AEEA group from Toledo have uncovered an old montante text written by hand on the margin of a theology book (perhaps a bored student work) Full content here http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/node/350
    (in spanish)
    Manuel Valle
    ____________
    http://ladestreza.blogspot.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by manuel valle View Post
    The fellows of the AEEA group from Toledo have uncovered an old montante text written by hand on the margin of a theology book (perhaps a bored student work) Full content here http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/node/350
    (in spanish)
    Thanks Manuel, wonderful. wonderful, it follows the general formula for the weapon we see elsewhere. Based on a quick look it may not be a huge amount much older than the date for the primary material,I think I agree with the rough dating that accompanies the transcription.
    Steve

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    Is "woo-hoo" to childish to post? Seriously, what a wonderful little find - including its possible notation as a scribble by a bored student!
    Greg Mele
    Chicago Swordplay Guild

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    "If the tongue could cut
    as the sword can do,
    the dead would be infinite."

    Filippo Vadi, "Arte Dimicandi Gladiatoria" (c.1482 - 87)

  4. #4
    I was going to make a joke about this doubling the amount of montante content that we have, but it didn't quite come together.

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    Michael we actually have material from Monte (2 short chapters, not plays) (1509), de Paredes (12 plays) (ca 1599), Godinho (14 plays, but with variations, it is more like 20), de Viedma (3 Plays) (1639), Gomes de Figueiredo (32 plays) (1651) and Mendoza (1 chapter) (1675),so seven more plays does add somewhat,but not double....

    The transcription is fairly sparse, reminiscent of de Paredes or the Anonymous Fragment of 1580. (Which Manuel located).

    Steve

  6. #6
    Yes, I know, but even all of that content together doesn't add up to very much.

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    Well, it does and it doesn't. Relative to longsword, sword and buckler or Italian spadone, it's sparse. As solo forms which can then be extrapolated into partnered work, it is interesting how versatile some of the material can be. Monte's simple little levata can expand into a myriad of actions.

    So yeah, it's sparse, and yet, oddly, it's enough.
    Greg Mele
    Chicago Swordplay Guild

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    "If the tongue could cut
    as the sword can do,
    the dead would be infinite."

    Filippo Vadi, "Arte Dimicandi Gladiatoria" (c.1482 - 87)

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    Wow, that is cool! The proportion of rules that focus on three circling cuts in the same direction calls to mind the various surrounded plays we see in Godinho, and even in jogo do pau.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Myers View Post
    The proportion of rules that focus on three circling cuts in the same direction calls to mind the various surrounded plays we see in Godinho...
    Yes, it seems to me Unfortunately i can't read spanish very well... But there seems to be significantly more "estocadas" compared to godinho...does the short text tell us something about the stepping for comparison?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan G. View Post
    ...does the short text tell us something about the stepping for comparison?
    Not really, no. Enter, exit, and turn are about all the detail he gives.

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    Now we have to translate this for later uses. I made a hack at it, I will share it with you (Eric) tomorrow, unless you share with me first.
    Steve

  12. Such a cool finding!

    This rules seem all to be like Figueiredo's first rules, step forward and backwards. Unless you would translate the last ones as actually turns in direction, I would love to see something like that but I don't think that is the case here. seems he is just telling to step back as in the first ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Chidester View Post
    Yes, I know, but even all of that content together doesn't add up to very much.
    Being that Godinho has a practically complete system for fighting against multiple opponents expressed in his work, not only for montante but any kind of sword like weapon and weapon combinations, something that I don't believe is seen in any other european manuals, I wouldn't say it doesn't amout to much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan G. View Post
    Yes, it seems to me Unfortunately i can't read spanish very well... But there seems to be significantly more "estocadas" compared to godinho
    Godinho tends to thrust only in a confined space, or against one opponent (who doesn't have a shield). These rules are very reminiscent of the ones from de Paredes, to me.


    Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frederico Martins View Post
    Such a cool finding!

    This rules seem all to be like Figueiredo's first rules, step forward and backwards. Unless you would translate the last ones as actually turns in direction, I would love to see something like that but I don't think that is the case here. seems he is just telling to step back as in the first ones.



    Being that Godinho has a practically complete system for fighting against multiple opponents expressed in his work, not only for montante but any kind of sword like weapon and weapon combinations, something that I don't believe is seen in any other european manuals, I wouldn't say it doesn't amout to much.
    I think there is one turn to the side, for sure, in the last one, and depending how large the ellipses is in that rule, you might read the last one as having another two tajo and the same thrust (and reverse with the step to the side). I'm with Tim, very reminiscent of de Paredes. We see this with another of the Spanish fragments, the one that Manuel found and he and for which he and Mary wrote a paper, which is reminiscent of Godinho -although that is most likely single sword.

    Steve

  15. I was talking about the "bolber", at first I got it as a turn but that was just wishfull thinking from my part

    the last rules does seem to have a change in direction, but i think it can also just mean a thrust from the right side. Of course with other authors with clear and regular changes in direction that would also make sense here. Unfortunately that is the rule with missing parts.

    I don't know about the other fragment and de Pareded or the other authors you mentioned, are they available in any way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frederico Martins View Post
    I was talking about the "bolber", at first I got it as a turn but that was just wishfull thinking from my part

    the last rules does seem to have a change in direction, but i think it can also just mean a thrust from the right side. Of course with other authors with clear and regular changes in direction that would also make sense here. Unfortunately that is the rule with missing parts.

    I don't know about the other fragment and de Pareded or the other authors you mentioned, are they available in any way?
    I think we as a community have not looked at the original just the transcription, and we don't know how extensive the ellipses in the last one might be. It might indicate the sequence occuring again (dos tajos y estocada) with another turn, or not.

    I think it is not by accident that the author uses bolber (volver) in the latter ones, yet uses salir in the first ones. I ~think the distinction migth be too subtle (and not really there) but salir is more exit, whereas you could read bolber and turn and not (re)turn, but I am not a native speaker, so I read things into this that might not be there. De Paredes is available in an otherwise French MS of a Belgian who was a member of the Spanish court in the late 16th century, page 241-242 in Le passetemps de J. Lhermite, pub. d'après le manuscrit original ... By Jehan LʾHermite.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=ctU...tocada&f=false
    Last edited by Steve Hick; 03-27-2012 at 05:26 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hick View Post
    Michael we actually have material from Monte (2 short chapters, not plays) (1509), de Paredes (12 plays) (ca 1599), Godinho (14 plays, but with variations, it is more like 20), de Viedma (3 Plays) (1639), Gomes de Figueiredo (32 plays) (1651) and Mendoza (1 chapter) (1675),so seven more plays does add somewhat,but not double....

    The transcription is fairly sparse, reminiscent of de Paredes or the Anonymous Fragment of 1580. (Which Manuel located).

    Steve
    If my memory serves me well, you wrote on another forum about your intention to publish all the available material on the montante. I guess I'll have to wait a bit longer now or else I'll have to revive my little language skills in Spanish and Portugese?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick De Block View Post
    If my memory serves me well, you wrote on another forum about your intention to publish all the available material on the montante.
    Yeah, looking forward to this, too So please hurry up ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick De Block View Post
    If my memory serves me well, you wrote on another forum about your intention to publish all the available material on the montante. I guess I'll have to wait a bit longer now or else I'll have to revive my little language skills in Spanish and Portugese?
    While this is an exciting and amusing find, it shouldn't slow down the publication.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan G. View Post
    Yeah, looking forward to this, too So please hurry up ;-)
    Yeah, Steve, get to it.


    Tim

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    Am I right in thinking this is some sort of solo flow drill ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme Anderson View Post
    Am I right in thinking this is some sort of solo flow drill ?
    Yes,but it contains aspects that with the right advice can be used for a semi antagonistic drill as Greg alluded.


    Patrick, first there'll be a revision and update to Figueiredo's. We are still working on the other, among the we, Tim is a major, major force.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hick View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme Anderson View Post
    Am I right in thinking this is some sort of solo flow drill ?
    Yes,but it contains aspects that with the right advice can be used for a semi antagonistic drill as Greg alluded.
    It seems to me that some rules are instructional 'flow drills' on how to handle the montante (most of what's in the link above, and the early rules from de Paredes and Figueiredo). The rest are situational, and are meant to be a repeated pattern for as long as the situation persists (latter de Paredes and Figuieredo, nearly all of Godinho). In the use of the montante, you're meant to flow between rules as appropriate to the situation and your goals.


    Tim

  23. #23
    Does anyone have information about the location and such for the book that contains this passage?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Chidester View Post
    Does anyone have information about the location and such for the book that contains this passage?
    montante
    Manuel Valle
    ____________
    http://ladestreza.blogspot.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by manuel valle View Post
    Michael, Manuel is the person who is the focal point for this, as well as the Anonymous work on fencing ca 1580, which is most likely on single sword. There is also an inclusion in Le Passtemps of LHermite of some rules of Pablo de Paredes ca 1599. The first work is post 1563, there is no dating it better than there, but it reads much like the rules of de Paredes, so between 1563 and 1599. Unless Manuel and his crew have located anything better.

    Manuel is also in the process of publishing an extensive bibliography of all Iberian works now known to exist. I am sure he will announce it when it is published, I am awaiting it with bated breath, so I might scoop the update here if it shows up in the AEEA forum.

    Steve

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