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Thread: A Kilij, but from where.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    West Yorkshire, England.
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    253

    A Kilij, but from where.

    I am in the process of pulling old purchases out of the bit-box, cleaning them up, and putting them on my wall.
    One of them is the sword following. Plain steel blade, multi fullered and light in weight. The grip is horn, probably buffalo, held by a concealed pin to a full profile tang. There is a yelman, so it is a Kilij rather than a shamshir, but from where. The guard is alas missing, and the remains of the scabbard a stripped core, all metalwork gone.
    What I am hoping for please, is some idea of where and when it is from, and what style of mounts it once had.
    Thankyou. Dave R
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  2. #2
    A real puzzle you got there. Shape of the blade is close to earlier kilij (14-16th centuries) yet shape of tang is in style of late kilij(17-18th centuries) It is made of plain steel with no decoration and it looks kinda short. Overall this sword has an anachronistic feel to it. Might it be a relatively newly made Arabic saif made in the general style of old Turkish kilij?
    "The relationship between West(Occident) and East(Orient) is indeed an example of a relationship of power and domination. Orientalism is thus a style of thought based upon an ontological and epistemological distinction made between the Orient and the Occident. It is a Western style of dominating, restructuring and building hegemony over the Orient.İt is an accepted grid for filtering through the Orient into Western consciousness, into the general culture."
    From "Orientalism" by Edward Said

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    kuwait
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    May I suggest that this one is a later "revival" turkish military Kilij?

    It has similarity to this one:

    http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3167

    But it could be east european. Certainly a nice blade though ;-)
    Last edited by A. Alnakas; 04-06-2012 at 02:21 AM.

  4. #4
    Actually, I considered that; of course anything is possible but late 19th-20th century revival pieces look much different from this blade, much narrower(like a military dress saber) and longer with no or very slightly pronounced yalmans, and of course heavily decorated. There would be at least one insignia of Ottoman army somewhere on the blade.
    "The relationship between West(Occident) and East(Orient) is indeed an example of a relationship of power and domination. Orientalism is thus a style of thought based upon an ontological and epistemological distinction made between the Orient and the Occident. It is a Western style of dominating, restructuring and building hegemony over the Orient.İt is an accepted grid for filtering through the Orient into Western consciousness, into the general culture."
    From "Orientalism" by Edward Said

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    kuwait
    Posts
    201
    Sancar,

    Yes but sadly I cannot find examples anywhere other then one which both you and David will have on your PM. Its still on sale so cant link it for discussion.

  6. #6
    That 19th century high ranking officer kilij in your PM is somewhat similar, yet blade is much longer and narrower, not much but it makes a difference. One thing that seems "off" in this kilij above is, its blade is unusually short relative to its hilt; I mean the blade length/hilt length ratio seems kinda weird to my eyes. If there had been no unfullered section in the "ricosso" of the blade, I would have suspected that it was shortened. Yet I don't dismiss the possibility of a late military kilij altogether.
    "The relationship between West(Occident) and East(Orient) is indeed an example of a relationship of power and domination. Orientalism is thus a style of thought based upon an ontological and epistemological distinction made between the Orient and the Occident. It is a Western style of dominating, restructuring and building hegemony over the Orient.İt is an accepted grid for filtering through the Orient into Western consciousness, into the general culture."
    From "Orientalism" by Edward Said

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    West Yorkshire, England.
    Posts
    253
    I think the photo's are giving the wrong impression of hilt to blade length, measurements are as follows. Blade length 79cm, 31 inches. Grip/hilt length 13cm or 5 inches, measurements taken from/to the point where the horn grip ends, an area showing remains of resin used to secure the guard, blade width 3.15 cm or 1.2 inches, thickness just over 4 mill, or about an eighth of an inch. A "revival" kilij sounds interesting and likely, but my sword looks a lot plainer than those illustrated, austere even.
    The remains of the scabbard have all the metal stripped and show a lot of bare wood, with a black leather covered section in what was the middle. This is sewn down the back with little bullion sections incorperated into the seam, recessed into a channel cut in the scabbard...no photo sorry, I didn't think to take one when I had the camera available. It is so fragmentary that I dismissed it as repairable or usefull as an indicator of origin.

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