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    Bond. James Bond...

    Question; Is it possible for any elemental metal, at any temperature range up to, and including boiling, to contain/produce 100% covalent bonding of the atomic allotropes?
    I do not include intermetallics here.
    If you know, I would be much obliged. had to ask that, so I could go to sleep.

    I do know there is quite a bit of change in Delta Iron, where it becomes magnetic at molten temps, at a narrow range. .. Hence the premise of the question.
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
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    Anyway, I was curious about molecular bonds in metals after this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhenium_diboride and this, http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...t=rhenaissance
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Bennett View Post
    Question; Is it possible for any elemental metal, at any temperature range up to, and including boiling, to contain/produce 100% covalent bonding of the atomic allotropes?
    I do not include intermetallics here.
    If you know, I would be much obliged. had to ask that, so I could go to sleep.

    I do know there is quite a bit of change in Delta Iron, where it becomes magnetic at molten temps, at a narrow range. .. Hence the premise of the question.
    I'm not quite sure you're asking what you think you're asking but the short answer is, by definition, no. The metallic bond is delocalised, the very definition of a metallic bond is a delocalised electron density approximately and averagely shared between the residual cations in the net. A net covalency in a system would cause the metal to cease to be a metal, at whichever state it occurred.

    Now, if you want to know if a metallic element can be nonmetallic, that's a different question, to which the easiest answer is: hydrogen. Yes, it's a metal. Just most of Sol's orbital environment atmospheric condition ranges tend to promote a nonmetallic form in both the gas and liquid state. With the correct application of pressure, you could conceivable cause a breakdown in metallic structure in any metal. It's only metallic because in the conditions you are likely to observe it at, the lowest system energy occurs as a metallic bonding system.
    Last edited by David F; 04-28-2012 at 02:52 AM. Reason: I can't differential between states and phases, apparently

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Bennett View Post
    Anyway, I was curious about molecular bonds in metals after this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhenium_diboride and this, http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...t=rhenaissance
    Also, any updates on backyard smelting? I have a few unflinchingly simple ideas I'd like a crazy smelter such as yourself to try out.

    And did you ever get a spectrograph of the coarse white cubes you noted? Both titanium and niobium carbonitrides have the same form. nickel intermetallics aren't that regularly cuboidal, despite what Dr Scott says, due to coherency with the matrix, even at large volume fractions and sizes. The long filaments look very much to me like flake graphite that has nucleated on something, what with that much aluminium and rhenium both destabilising cementite, but you didn't deliberately add carbon...Although I've seen fine flake graphite nucleate and the other things grow epitaxially from it to obscure it before in cast irons in a previous life..

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    Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I appreciate that.
    As a comic book metallurgist, I often ask convoluted questions. It helps stimulate new ideas.
    I would love to hear your ideas. Haven't done much smelting/melting, as of late, but have a list of things to try.The thermite furnace is very wild, and hard to control by lab standards, but has potential to do things conventional furnaces can't. I think.

    As far as the graphite, i deliberate left all carbon out. I planned on either carborizing, or precipitation hardening my alloy with boron, or nitrogen. There may be trace carbon from the 2 meteorites, but not that much. I have the chemistry of both.

    The cubes must be niobium then, as there is no Ti in the mix. Unfortunately, there is a bit of copper and zinc in there. I inadvertently used Al alloy, rather than pure Al, for the thermite. Thanks again.
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Bennett View Post
    Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I appreciate that.
    As a comic book metallurgist, I often ask convoluted questions. It helps stimulate new ideas.
    I would love to hear your ideas. Haven't done much smelting/melting, as of late, but have a list of things to try.The thermite furnace is very wild, and hard to control by lab standards, but has potential to do things conventional furnaces can't. I think.

    As far as the graphite, i deliberate left all carbon out. I planned on either carborizing, or precipitation hardening my alloy with boron, or nitrogen. There may be trace carbon from the 2 meteorites, but not that much. I have the chemistry of both.

    The cubes must be niobium then, as there is no Ti in the mix. Unfortunately, there is a bit of copper and zinc in there. I inadvertently used Al alloy, rather than pure Al, for the thermite. Thanks again.

    Any time

    The likelihood of zinc contamination is very remote. The boiling point of zinc is 907 degrees, and allowing for stability of zinc intermetallics in the system, the vast majority is going to have evaporated. Copper has a maximum solubility of about 2% in ferrite at elevated temperatures, higher in austenite and higher still in the presence of nickel, but at room temperature, after allowing a tempering operation, most will be present as small, discrete globules. It's used in some unusual but known alloy systems in this way for precipitation hardening (no just 17-4PH steel, either).

    I've got your listed composition from the other thread, is that correct? 5.0% aluminium, 1.2% niobium, 0.9% rhenium, 0.2% nickel, 0.2% copper, trace titanium, iridium and carbon? That much niobium on its own would completely remove the austenite field,, just like titanium would.
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    I believe that is correct. I just moved, (my house burned down, and I misplaced my notes). The chemistry was done at Portland State U., via SEM.
    I did soak it in liquid nitrogen and double temper it, trying to get it to convert. It is totally stable Austenite.

    EDIT: Oh, BTW, I didn't burn the house down by making steel.
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Bennett View Post
    I believe that is correct. I just moved, (my house burned down, and I misplaced my notes). The chemistry was done at Portland State U., via SEM.
    I did soak it in liquid nitrogen and double temper it, trying to get it to convert. It is totally stable Austenite.

    EDIT: Oh, BTW, I didn't burn the house down by making steel.
    One thing to remember for the future, whenever you get analysis work done, try not to suggest that the analysts put their interpretation on results, and don't assume, just because they look at spectra all day long, that they've correctly, or the software has, identified energy peaks in dispersive results. There are a number of elements whose secondary electron energies overlap. I have to be careful with the XRF I do not to assume that peak there is what the machine is absolutely sure it is, and seems to make sense to me, too, if you follow...

    Second, ouch. No-one was injured, I trust?

    Austenite was determined by...crystal diffraction, I assume? I'm sorry, I didn't see where it was established that the matrix was FCC....?
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    Here are some interesting thermal calc phase diagrams, someone did for me, with rhenium. The iron has little choice but to make FCC allotrope with Re present. Even in minute amounts.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    Quote Originally Posted by David F View Post
    One thing to remember for the future, whenever you get analysis work done, try not to suggest that the analysts put their interpretation on results, and don't assume, just because they look at spectra all day long, that they've correctly, or the software has, identified energy peaks in dispersive results. There are a number of elements whose secondary electron energies overlap. I have to be careful with the XRF I do not to assume that peak there is what the machine is absolutely sure it is, and seems to make sense to me, too, if you follow...

    Second, ouch. No-one was injured, I trust?

    Austenite was determined by...crystal diffraction, I assume? I'm sorry, I didn't see where it was established that the matrix was FCC....?
    Thanks. I will definitely remember that advice!
    I believe it was crystal diffraction. It is totally non magnetic...
    No one was hurt in the fire, thank God. Lost a bunch of stuff though.
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    That's a shitty thing to have to put up with, I'm really sorry to hear that, even though it's not much comfort now.

    What I was getting at is that it's possible for ferrite to be nonmagnetic. The curie point and the alpha to gamma change are linked but not entirely inseparable. But if crystallographic data says FCC, then its pretty incontravertible. Those thumbnails are a bit too tiny to read, and while I don't dispute the work put into them, ThermoCalc's been very very wrong as well as very, very right before. It just seems, from a first principles view, that less than one per cent is a tiny, tiny amount of (especially substitutional) solute to extend the stable austenite phase field that far. Admittedly, I've never seen an iron rhenium alloy, and I doubt, before you, no-one actually tried to make one for fun...

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    After a good amount of *careful* trial and error, this is my little thermite furnace design.
    I nick named it "The Star Chamber", due to the extreme temps that a thermite flame can reach.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    Also, I don't see any rhenium on any of those multiphase or isotherms....?
    Freelance materials consultant to the stars

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Bennett View Post
    After a good amount of *careful* trial and error, this is my little thermite furnace design.
    I nick named it "The Star Chamber", due to the extreme temps that a thermite flame can reach.
    I was looking at a little simplified version of something like that myself, but as it's a rental terrace property, the back yard isn't big enough, and I can't see my local council being happy with me digging up a playing field to sink a little incendiary experiment into it, it's kinda on the back burner for now ;-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by David F View Post
    That's a shitty thing to have to put up with, I'm really sorry to hear that, even though it's not much comfort now.

    What I was getting at is that it's possible for ferrite to be nonmagnetic. The curie point and the alpha to gamma change are linked but not entirely inseparable. But if crystallographic data says FCC, then its pretty incontravertible. Those thumbnails are a bit too tiny to read, and while I don't dispute the work put into them, ThermoCalc's been very very wrong as well as very, very right before. It just seems, from a first principles view, that less than one per cent is a tiny, tiny amount of (especially substitutional) solute to extend the stable austenite phase field that far. Admittedly, I've never seen an iron rhenium alloy, and I doubt, before you, no-one actually tried to make one for fun...

    You do live and learn
    Ha ha, that is a fact. The patent lawer, who is a retired chemical engineer, said he could not find anywhere, anything close. To be quite honest, I was reading a paper on rhenium as "grain glue", and thought it was worth a try, since I had the heat to do it. My original choice was palladium, but no way I can afford that. I asked for a small grant from the company, just to cover materials, but they only smirked. Then I brought a sample in, and suddenly I was on a conference call with a few guys with a bunch of letters after their names.
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    Quote Originally Posted by David F View Post
    I was looking at a little simplified version of something like that myself, but as it's a rental terrace property, the back yard isn't big enough, and I can't see my local council being happy with me digging up a playing field to sink a little incendiary experiment into it, it's kinda on the back burner for now ;-)
    Cool. If you need some notes, let me know. Here is a similar run. I was able to dissolve tungsten! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PwXN...FD345AB556B81F
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Bennett View Post
    Cool. If you need some notes, let me know. Here is a similar run. I was able to dissolve tungsten! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PwXN...FD345AB556B81F
    It'd probably be more cost-effective for me to pay you to smelt for me ;-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Bennett View Post
    Ha ha, that is a fact. The patent lawer, who is a retired chemical engineer, said he could not find anywhere, anything close. To be quite honest, I was reading a paper on rhenium as "grain glue", and thought it was worth a try, since I had the heat to do it. My original choice was palladium, but no way I can afford that. I asked for a small grant from the company, just to cover materials, but they only smirked. Then I brought a sample in, and suddenly I was on a conference call with a few guys with a bunch of letters after their names.
    A grain glue in nickel-based alloys, perchance? It's regularly used in superalloys for turbine engine technology, although the need for a grain boundary cohesion promoter is somewhat moot in single crystal blades. I know its been tried in lower cost FCC alloys like 304 to see what it does in the what of dislocation movement inhibition, but most structural metals don't have a deficiency of strength at grain boundaries, rather a surplus - hence in simple terms why grain size refinement increases the strength and toughness of most BCC metals, especially ferrous one.
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    Also, palladium's not that expensive, either... I'd certainly have said cheaper than rhenium...
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    Quote Originally Posted by David F View Post
    A grain glue in nickel-based alloys, perchance? It's regularly used in superalloys for turbine engine technology, although the need for a grain boundary cohesion promoter is somewhat moot in single crystal blades. I know its been tried in lower cost FCC alloys like 304 to see what it does in the what of dislocation movement inhibition, but most structural metals don't have a deficiency of strength at grain boundaries, rather a surplus - hence in simple terms why grain size refinement increases the strength and toughness of most BCC metals, especially ferrous one.
    I guess single grain engine blades, are somewhat old fashioned, from what I hear. That's the only part on the plane we don't make.
    The nickel base is what I was going after, but wanted to see if I could decrease the amount of Nickel and precipitation harden it, or more specifically, spot harden it. I was only trying to make a cool knife..
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    Won't be anywhere near hard enough. The gamma prime in nickel based superalloys is at best about 35 Rockwell C. It's not that hard, but it does get stronger up to about 900K because f Kear-Wilsdorf locks (basically, superdislocations that tangle because of their extremely ordered structure. They're not as brittle as ceramic particles such as cementite, they're much tougher and their structure is more mobile). The maximum yield strength you're looking at, in extremely aged samples with >80% precipitate by volume is about 2GPa, not as strong as ultra high strength steels, and with impact energies about the same as a carrot. 2GPa yield equates to about 45 Rockwell C (although the macrohardness scales and tensile properties aren't perfectly linked), and near the higher end - 60-65 Rockwell C the line tends to an exponential curve. Tray as it might, nickel just can't match iron ;-)




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    Well, that, my friend, was over my head. I can sort of keep up with iron system alloys and grain structures, and such, but I am just a humble machinist that works for Boeing, after all. Fabrication division, Portland. I would love to do some thermite alloy for you, in exchange for some lab work. I've spent a lot of money on the local labs....Every run is better than the last. If you make Vibranium, adamantium, or a Silmaril, I get half.
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    Oh, Tony Stark was was off with gold titanium. I was thinking more of titanium niobium rhenium tungsten. That's just me though. Hot Rod red is fine.
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    One question; if super novas can vaporize elements, and scatter them, why are there no alloys found in nature?
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Bennett View Post
    Well, that, my friend, was over my head. I can sort of keep up with iron system alloys and grain structures, and such, but I am just a humble machinist that works for Boeing, after all. Fabrication division, Portland. I would love to do some thermite alloy for you, in exchange for some lab work. I've spent a lot of money on the local labs....Every run is better than the last. If you make Vibranium, adamantium, or a Silmaril, I get half.
    I can show you how to make superbainites ;-) I'm still wondering if it's possible to keep this side of the T0 curve with an alloy containing enough nitrogen, chromium and nickel to make a corrosion resisting one. Conceivably it's possible, but it's going to be a hell of balancing act.

    I can provide you XRF, EDX, metallographics and some mechanical properties assay. That work for you?
    Freelance materials consultant to the stars

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