Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 96

Thread: Curious engraving on an early Wilkinson

  1. #51

    Curious engraving

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Easton View Post
    You and me both, Gordon!
    I'll post it up here as soon as I have it.
    Regards,
    Matt
    Hi Matt,

    Have you established what is noted on the 6900 proof docket?

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    No, it's driving me nuts . I haven't received it in the post, nor received a reply to my email unfortunately. Perhaps he's away.
    I will post it as soon as I have it.
    Cheers,
    Matt

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    124
    Here's to hoping you receive a nice supprise when it does arrive..
    Bryan

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    Thanks Bryan, I have a hunch that it's going to have no name though!
    Oh, and I have deduced that the blade is indeed also silver plated, as Will surmised.
    Matt

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    FYI, some of my post got lost in transit... and it seems that my submission to Richard Milner was amongst these! So I'll send it again, but at least this explains the delay!

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kingston area, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    2,928
    Why not have Richard scan and email you the page?

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    I will do, though the only way I have of contacting/sending him payment is postally with his pdf form.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kingston area, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    2,928
    I'm sure he accepts credit cards, your letter lost in the Christmas rush! Santa does a better job of delivery but only one day a year.

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    Hi Will, yes but he still requires the form to be sent postally with the card and sword details on.

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    Well I have now heard back from Richard Milner and unfortunately 6900 is in one of the missing Wilkinson books!
    So I'm left with the Baronial crown, the initials and the strange Hindu letters.

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Easton View Post
    Though to me it looks like it may just be the DWC of Dudley Wilmot Carleton. In the photo Carleton's scabbard does look very white, like the Silver of mine, and the drag is the exact same style as mine (assymmetrical, unlike Will and John's examples, which are symmetrical). It may look a little curved though, whereas mine is dead straight.
    This is who I think was the most likely owner and I think that there is a good chance that the sword in that photo is the same sword I now own.
    As to the significance of the Hindi writing, I cannot fathom. None of the officers who had possibly matching initials in the Coldstreams had any experience in India, as far as I can see.

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    So, to summarise the only ways I have of pinning this to a person:
    Baronial coronet with initials:


    Hindi letters - perhaps 'i' 'ph' and 'ie'/'ee'/'de':


    The initials under the Baronial coronet could be G, C, or D. Perhaps with an implied W or A in the middle?
    The blade dates to 1855, but conceivably could have been rehilted if someone moved to the Coldstreams later. So the owner must have been a person with links to a Baronial title, with these initials, between say 1855 and about 1870 (after which I think that the hilts do not have this general outline).

    Possible candidates:
    Lord Eustace Cecil
    Sir James Dunlop
    Dudley Wilmot Carleton
    William Gregory Dawkins
    Vesey Dawson
    Gerald Goodlake (though he was untitled, his wife was the daughter of a baronet)

    I *think* these are the only possible candidates. Any further views on the initials please?

    Matt

  13. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    Technically, based on the parameters above, it could also be Colin Campbell, 1st Lord Clyde....
    EDIT - extremely unlikely though, as the blade dates to 1855 and he wasn't given his title until 1858, after the Mutiny...though conceivably the engravings could have been added later and the blade rehilted when he took command of the Coldstreams in 1860.. Seems extremely unlikely though.
    Last edited by Matt Easton; 01-04-2013 at 12:46 PM.

  15. #65
    I have seen later Guards swords which belonged to Peers. Many simply had one initial. So if a sword had belonged to Lord Clyde, it would simply have a C for Clyde. I agree with Gordon--it look like a letter D in double reverse. Where there any Peers in the CCG with the letter D during the time of your sword?

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    Okay, reading an 1890's book on heraldry, it suggests that this coronet may be for a Viscount (14 or 16 pearls, only 7 being visible to the front). If we assume that is the case and if we assume that the sword was made as it is in 1855 and never rehilted, Hart's army list for the Coldstreams in 1856 gives the following Viscount possibilities:

    George Frederick Upton, 3rd Viscount Templetown
    William Henry Wellesley, Viscount Dangan
    Henry William John Byng, 4th Earl of Strafford and Viscount Enfield[?]
    James Alfred Caulfield, 7th Viscount Charlemont [only gained the title in 1892...]
    William Archer Amherst, 3rd Earl Amherst [known as Viscount Holmesdale]

    I can't say that any of those strike me as particularly well matched!

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    Quote Originally Posted by J.G. Hopkins View Post
    I have seen later Guards swords which belonged to Peers. Many simply had one initial. So if a sword had belonged to Lord Clyde, it would simply have a C for Clyde. I agree with Gordon--it look like a letter D in double reverse. Where there any Peers in the CCG with the letter D during the time of your sword?
    Viscount Dangan, William Henry Wellesley, seems to be the only one matching that criteria.

  18. #68
    That would make the Hindi(?) letters make more sense:

    MILITARY: Lieutenant - Coldstream Guards, 1852; Captain, 1854; Military Secretary to the Governor of Bombay, 1859; Captain and Lieutenant-Colonel - Coldstream Guards, 1860-1863.
    MILITARY: Battles and Wars> Served in the Oude Campaign, 1858.

  19. #69
    1863 Hart's List:

    (click to enlarge)
    Name:  Dangan.jpg
Views: 37
Size:  38.8 KB

    I think he is the most likely candidate.

  20. #70
    Knowing nothing about Hindi or other Indian languages, but... Could the letters on the blade correspond to the initials WHW?

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    I'm going to consult with some more linguists on this. On the surface it seems possible, as these symbols relate to sounds rather than letters per se. The fact that he has three initials with the first and last being the same does seem promising. As I understand it the 'lg's sound of the middle character could lead to a harder 'h'.
    Cheers,
    Matt

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    A comparison between Earl's and a Viscount's coronet:



    Although it is more usual to show 10 pearls for a Viscount, Barons nearly always seem to have 4 and Earl's always seen to have 5 on raised stalks. This coronet must be that of a Viscount, which are not infrequently shown with 7 pearls.








  23. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    The more I look at contemporary monograms, the more certain I am that these are not D's, but rather C's, or one C doubled:
    http://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/monogram-list/c

    For comparison, the monogram of John Joshua Proby, 1st Earl of Carysfort:


  24. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    For me the front contender now is James Alfred Caulfeild, 7th Viscount Charlemont:

    http://www.themilitarygentleman.com/...sp%7Cprev=true
    Last edited by Matt Easton; 01-06-2013 at 10:06 AM.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,878
    This is the monogram of John Frederick Campbell, 1st Earl Cawdor - note the precedent for getting the C and C from the title and the surname (or doubling one of them):



    And now from the sword:


Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •