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Thread: Cup hilts at same shop as Dutch British Cutlass are the real or memorex?

  1. #1
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    Cup hilts at same shop as Dutch British Cutlass are the real or memorex?

    How do you tell repro from rapier on these cup hilts? The hilt looks later than blade on both. Anyone have photos of these type, especially American used?
    Last edited by Eric Fairbanks; 07-27-2014 at 12:41 PM. Reason: photos did not load
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

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    photos

    Photos did not upload but here is half, send the rest in a bit.
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    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  3. #3
    Hi Eric,

    Thanks for posting this great sword!
    Another interesting variant! I'd love to get my hands on it!

    The cup and pommel look etched to me.
    The blade is interesting. Maker's name: Matthias Wolffertz?
    I'm not familiar with the name, but it looks good in the pictures.
    The etched pieces look of different construction to the fine looking blade so perhaps a two period piece as you suggest?
    Perhaps a late 17th/early 18th century blade with a late 18th/early 19th century redress?
    These were in use until comparatively late?
    Last edited by Gene Wilkinson; 07-27-2014 at 01:53 PM.

  4. #4
    It would be interesting to see inside the cup and some more close-ups if possible?

    I'll snap some pics of swords of mine to attempt to illustrate.
    Below if the blade above flipped for easier reading of the maker Matthias Wolffertz
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    Last edited by Gene Wilkinson; 07-27-2014 at 01:54 PM.

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    here is one more

    I just took a couple of quick shots in shop for myself and never thought to take detailed photos to share. I will not make that mistake again as more photos would mean more info. If I am back in SLC soon I will stop back in. I thought both swords were earlier with a later rehilt but was not certain. for what ever reason I cannot get them to upload right now Eric
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    Last edited by Eric Fairbanks; 07-27-2014 at 04:36 PM. Reason: add photos
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  6. #6
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    I think the blade is good. Made in Germany for Italian market, (Inn Allemagna). The cup is a replacement from first half of XXth century. The rest I cannot see. It seems many cups got oxidized all through, maybe they restain water from condensation more easily.
    La vida amable, el enemigo hombre fuerte, ordinario el peligro, natural la defensa, la Ciencia para conseguirla infalible, su estudio forçoso, y el exercicio necessario conviene al que huviere de ser Diestro, no ignore la teorica, para que en la practica, el cuerpo, el braço, y los instrumentos obren lo conveniente a su perfeccion. --Don Luis Pacheco de Narvaez.

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    Reading it seems many of these are rehilts or at the least it is not uncommon. Are most total rehilt as in cup, grip, grip, knuckle guard and pommel or just the cup?
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  8. #8
    I agree with a lot of what Javier has said but having had more time to look at the pictures I think there is a chance that the etched cups are still potentially 19thc.
    It's difficult to tell even with those good pictures.
    As Javier says, cups tend to oxidize on the inside more than on the outside.
    A combination of outside cleaning and inside neglect, point-down storage and the cups 'catching' moisture, a better finish on the outside resisting corrosion for longer?
    Who knows? But it's often the case.
    If the cups on these two are as 'clean' on the inside as on the outside, then I'd be worried that they are a rather more recent addition.

    Look at the level or pitting inside this cup as compared to outside:
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    Last edited by Gene Wilkinson; 07-28-2014 at 01:55 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Fairbanks View Post
    Reading it seems many of these are rehilts or at the least it is not uncommon. Are most total rehilt as in cup, grip, grip, knuckle guard and pommel or just the cup?
    It's difficult to tell from these pictures. The bow and quillons look good to me, possibly on both. The grip and wire binding looks good on the second one. Although some 19th century rapiers have nice grips! (I'll add a picture).
    In Europe it was popular in the 19thC to 'remake' rapiers in full or in part.
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    If yours is a rehilt it looks way better than the photos of the ones I posted. I have looked at all your photos and saved some to my tablet so they would be with me when I travel if I get a chance to shop. Hope you don't mind. If it is a problem I will delete them. I for one can not believe how much they vary. I really had no idea and only after you start looking at photos does it become evident. I would love it if some of these good ole boys would part with a few photos of the Caribbean cup hilts narrow and wide blade or any cup hilts regardless of country. Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Fairbanks View Post
    If yours is a rehilt it looks way better than the photos of the ones I posted. I have looked at all your photos and saved some to my tablet so they would be with me when I travel if I get a chance to shop. Hope you don't mind. If it is a problem I will delete them. I for one can not believe how much they vary. I really had no idea and only after you start looking at photos does it become evident. I would love it if some of these good ole boys would part with a few photos of the Caribbean cup hilts narrow and wide blade or any cup hilts regardless of country. Eric
    I can't speak for Javier's collection, but please feel free to save my pictures as you wish.
    There seem to be distinct variations within these swords. I still wonder if these denote region specific variations?
    Despite their rough and ready appearance they do have some charm and although not a well balanced as you might expect, they feel functional.

    The 'rapier' I shown with the twist grip was just to illustrate a 19thC creation and how some can be quite nice. It's totally of 19thC construction. A military klingenthal blade and a very atypical take on rapier guards.

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