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Thread: WYATT, Philadelphia maker? Looking for info

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    WYATT, Philadelphia maker? Looking for info

    I am looking for information in regards to Wyatt, an American sword maker or assembler. Stamped on this sword blade 'WYATT"
    Any help is appreciated.

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    Joseph Wyatt Philadelphia, Pa 1797 to 1798 Silversmith that mounted swords ASASM Bezdek chapter 6 but your sword looks like it pre dates 1797 more like 1775 to 1785. Of course surely he made swords more than one year but I am sure Bezdek took that from an advertisement in an old paper or add bill. Looks like Revolutionary War infantry sword. But don't see a lot of it.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

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    I don't see mention of the name for America's usual suspects in several books. I did not paw through Neumann though. The name is not found in Peterson, two Bezdek books, nor in the Lattimer collection or Medicus collection.

    I have seen a number of British slotted hilts with additional bars. Can you post a picture of the entire sword? I have not checked what few British name are listed in the older Mowbray's book on eagle pommels but they would be later than that form.


    Edit
    Ha! Where in Bezdek. I must be going blind.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; good job Eric

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    Here is a whole picture of it. 35 1/2 inch blade so I believe cavalry


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    An ancestry list has him dying by 1798

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    Joseph Wyatt


    Son of William Wyatt of Rotherhithe Wall in the County of Surrey miller, apprenticed to William Suddell of Pelican Court Little Britain as silversmith 8 April 1778. Free, 4 May 1785. Mark entered as small worker, 1 October 1789. Address: 12 Angel Street, St. Martin's Le Grand. Heal records him as goldsmith, Angel Street, 1790.

    http://www.koopmanrareart.com/Deskto...artistid=23944

    Philadelphia/ American silversmiths
    https://books.google.com/books?id=70...rsmith&f=false

    From Archive .org
    http://archive.org/stream/makersofea...0ensk_djvu.txt

    I am seeing reference for London past 1800

    Bi-oceanic? Coincidence? Or brokered in America as imports? Another generation?
    Last edited by Glen C.; 01-29-2015 at 08:54 PM.

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    RW period horsemans sabre. Most have flat, double or wide fuller not single small fuller like short infantry swords. Wow the two branches on a slot hilt is nice, don't see them everyday. I agree with Glenn on the British look of it but even the Potters are a British invention I suppose. I just don't see this style that late. If made 1796 thats 10 years after 1788 pattern. How old was he in 1798 when he died, Glen? I really don't have a grasp on these swords but they are a favorite. I would suppose the turn of the century slot hilt eagles were a descendent of the hilt style. Anyway it looks to be in terrific shape scabbard and all nice find Will. The clip point is very interesting kind of an American trait. Eric
    And absolutely a calvary sword, my bad I never thought it that long.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

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    The repeated 1797-98 Philadelphia appears to be sourcing from this 1920 reference for silversmiths. No other data available from it. I have little doubt the dates simply from an annual city directory (hence no further data).
    http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=u8oDAAAAYAAJ

    The genealogy page I had seen last night (as is Ancestry.com) is pulling the dates from the same source.

    Clipped blades are a European continent trait. Slotted hits? Well, there is a multiple page thread pinned at the head of this section. I would regard neither singular to a particular country but Wyatt does seem to be a surname of English origin. If I find more on either side of the pond, I will add it.

    Oldswords lists a Wyatt&Bush with no known location or firm date but an auction description for a Victorian era sword

    A sword with the following description was sold by 'Gorringes [Lewes]' auction house on 16/04/2003 08:41:34.

    A Victorian cut steel dress sword, the etched blade inscribed by the maker Wyatt & Bush, the guard grip and knuckle guard applied with cut beads, black leather and steel mounted sheaf and outer soft case, 38ins E100-150


    I find a reference for that firm as a tailor's shop.
    October 05, 1867 - London City Press - London, London, Engl

    Mesars. WYATT and BUSH, Tailors 20, St. Martin'a-le-Grand




    http://search.findmypast.com/search/...lastname=wyatt

    Also from Oldswords and drawn from threads here at SFI

    1827 British infantry sword
    Scabbard throat marked WYATTS REGISTERED NO. 20052. Scabbard made of leather and wood with nickel plated brass with a leather frog strap.

    P1897 British
    The leather field service scabbard is ruggedly handsome with its metal furniture. The locket is stamped ₓWYATT₄S REGISTERED No. 20052₝. I am guessing this is a patented design, and the number refers to a patent number since this same marking appears on other field service scabbards of the period (mostly on scabbards for swords officers of the Indian Army).

    Cheers

    Hotspur; the Thurkle name lasted a long time as well

    re
    even the Potters are a British invention
    The British needed swords, The swords were Potter's work
    Last edited by Glen C.; 01-30-2015 at 06:01 AM.

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    The pommel is not the same as the British 1788HC swords, they are elongated. Sourced in Philadelphia so it may well be Wyatt the silversmith, possibly more money in swords at the time.

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    I do have a couple of the 1788 patterns my favorite a relic condition Woolley 1788 pattern dated 1788. The pattern of your sword is more inline with the early horsemen of the previous decade. I did find on line horsemen sabres dated to the 1796 time frame that are very much similar to yours but with bone grip. So if their dating can be trusted these were made upto the turn of the century. The slot hilts are truly a pleasing to the eye sort a tad more so to me than the hussar calvary swords.

    We were all British or a facsimile of at the Potter time frame, some more than others and if I understand correctly the blades were very likely inports hilted here. Was anyone here capable of the number of blades and quality made? I just don't know enough about them but love the chase. Eric
    Last edited by Eric Fairbanks; 01-30-2015 at 09:14 AM.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

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    We were all British or a facsimile of at the Potter time frame, some more than others and if I understand correctly the blades were very likely inports hilted here. Was anyone here capable of the number of blades and quality made? I just don't know enough about them but love the chase.
    Re Potter

    In the Potter thread I posted a pdf link for the most recent information I am aware of. Within that article are the notes of Potter hiring blade filers. Why would he need to hire filers to finish forged blades if the blades were imported? Imported British and German blades were always pretty much ready to go.

    Yes, my own early American kin were Virginia and Mayflower types but there were others in vast numbers that were not English, particularly in NYC.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; the Potter hilt looks anything but English to me but what do I know?

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    I do not deny they have an American crudeness in the guard with the sharp turn unlike the sword in this thread with a more rounded look. The slot hilt is a British invention or is it? I read somewhere that blades came in every form from billets to completed products and every thing inbetween. Filers would be needed for hilting and for finishing blades. Potter turned out a lot of swords in a short time for production rates of the period. The US had no or few roll mills or trip hammers for fabricating. So in my mind he would have hade to have a huge work force to forge so many swords. I am not well read on Potter but have run across nothing to indicate aforging work force of that size. To forge a blade by hand and do a really nice consistent job takes a fair amount of time and work. Almost every tang I have ever looked at on US blades has been forge welded to add length which in it self is lots of work and filing. Every Ames Calvary sword for sure and all have the v check mark. They very well may have been made here you are way better read than I on the subject but with the War, limited work force, lack of machinery, and quality of the product I canot wrap my head around it.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

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    The debate on Potter (imo) needs to continue in the Potter thread, not ramble on here. Eric, I hate to say again that I don't like to repeat my thoughts but I expressed my thoughts on slotted hilts. I expressed my thoughts on whether Potter blades are imported and have tried to stay on the topic regarding Wyatt. Now you wish to relate Ames particulars? C'mon man.

    Buried in the link I offered for ASOAC bulletins is an article on trade blades penned by Bazelon. Perhaps you'd like to start a separate thread about trade blades after browsing that link in the Potter thread.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; show me that the earrliest slotted hilt was "invented" by the British and I'll stand up and salute

    ASASM Bezdek chapter 6
    Chapter 24, single line entry with no particulars.
    Last edited by Glen C.; 01-30-2015 at 04:07 PM.

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    Has anyone seen similar swords, I can't find any that match when I search and none the same on dealer sites. Maybe I'm searching the wrong description?

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    Nuemann's; Swords and Blades of the American Revolution

    276s
    Straight Gill marked blade
    Egg shaped pommel
    Listed date 1775-1785

    Other examples I have seen have also been on both straight and curved blades. Sometimes on a more hussar grip and backstrap ala the Banastre Tarleton portrait (can't really claim that one to be slotted).
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...a-Reynolds.jpg

    Along the same lines.are the folding guard slotted hilts from across the channel and this one from Withers
    http://www.antiqueswordsonline.com/e...-hanger-sword/

    Oldswords has a couple of later slotted forms but again, not quite the same thing.

    The pommel shown in you pictures is similar to earlier swords, predominantly baskethilts

    Cheers

    Hotspur; extra branches/ half baskets on the bow counterguards following the same trend

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    Thank-you Glen. I have just ordered a copy of Neumans. I can only imagine that each smaller producer of swords in this time period could only make limited amounts of swords. Britain must of tried to cut the supply of arms and components at this time? Some would be smuggled through though.
    I do not have much information on this maker as to whether he just assembled parts or manufactured component parts. The guard and blade do appear well made.

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    An issue I see is that Wyatt is such a common name. Philadelphia (and England at large) list many Wyatts, even a street named Wyatt in Philly at that time in History. We aren't looking at a silver hilt. Wyatt (as a firm) may have been active before the revolution.

    We are assuming Philadelphia when it might not have originated there.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; Nuemann's is a great book covering a century and more. A good many attributions might be debated though. I'll try to add a snapshot of that one in the next day or so.

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    Yes an assumption of being the Wyatt in Philadelphia. He does not appear in any of my British sword references that are fairly extensive.
    The blade tip is American style and the metal scabbard mouth is not typical British. Pommel is shaped more like a basket hilted sword as Glen mentioned.

    I don't think a small unknown maker would be capable of producing such a quality sword in this time period. I think it is plausible that a silversmith could make swords since working in metal would require similar tooling and knowledge. In war time I don't think most makers would make silver hilted swords but rather more useful ones.
    Still assumption until more information surfaces. A museum or collection somewhere must have a similar example.

    Glen what quantities would a private maker have made during the revolution? I would think a cavalry sword like this of decent quality would be made in relatively large quantity, at least in the 1000's ? or am I wrong? To me the blade doesn't appear imported.

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    So far, we only see one

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    While this is a hanger it is a very similar and American made hilt. I thought it might interest you. Wyatt is listed a Silversmith who mounted swords. If the Joseph Wyatt in Bezdeks book is the correct one I really would doubt he forged blade or formed hilt. Silversmiths did mount swords and sell them but would not have equipment or tools to forge a blade unless also a blacksmith and the two are a long way apart. In 1797 buying a blade from Solingen or England would have been fairly simple. If in fact a RW piece then it would be some different. Who knows maybe he hilted swords before opening a silversmith shop which with the style of sword and hilt is very possible.
    Glen, Glen, Glen Bless your heart. We were talking about filers, the Ames mention is about filers needed for forge welded tangs and hilting. The Potters are slot hilts and we are talking about slot hilts. This sword is a slot hilt and I guess I do ramble on a bit, but you saying it is a bit like a pot calling a kettle black. I would ask you be civil to me or silent. You keep saying you do not like repeating yourself and no one is asking you too. Eric
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    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

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    Thanks Eric. Interesting that no cavalry swords can be found with similar hilt. Possibly cavalry swords were cut down for hangers? I particularly like the longer slightly curved blade with the clipped point? I think that's a accepted term for it.
    What you pictured is one of the few similar I've seen without the 90 degree bend in the guard.

  22. #22
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    Hi Eric

    Glen, Glen, Glen Bless your heart. We were talking about filers, the Ames mention is about filers needed for forge welded tangs and hilting. The Potters are slot hilts and we are talking about slot hilts. This sword is a slot hilt and I guess I do ramble on a bit, but you saying it is a bit like a pot calling a kettle black. I would ask you be civil to me or silent. You keep saying you do not like repeating yourself and no one is asking you too. Eric
    Yes, in regard to the Potter swords. I don't feel asking the Potter discussion unworthy or unreasonable to be continued in the Potter thread. You will admit we do go around in circles until information already presented by me is read by you a few times. In that vein, take a close look at the Potter article and confirm you think those blades are imported. That seems to be your take on them.

    What are your thoughts on the hilt on 276s? Listed as a horseman's saber.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; thoughts scattered to the wind tend to dilute any concentration

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    Will there are similar calvary swords with slot hilt and the bow type guard. Most are British.Non that I have seen with exact configuration of branches. But many with branches. I think if you do a search for Colonial Horsemans sabre or Revolutionary War horsemans sabre and possibly exchange horseman for calvary you will see similar swords. Non with clip point but that goes with 1897 date. The turn of the century to 1815 clip points were quite popular in the States. There are several horseman sabres in Weapons of the RW by Neumann some with bow type and some with right angle. For me American made horsemans in the condition of yours even if late for their time is a prize. I do not believe your blade was made in America but very few were. I do believe it was hilted and stamped here. We did not have the iron, equipment or skill at that time. Starr and others were making blades by this time but compare your blade to a 1798 Starr or a Rose for that matter. Yours is very well made. The only thing for me is the clip point which I see as an American trait. Hard to say for sure with my limited brain power. Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

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    I had first thought the sword was British. I didn't pay close attention to the details believing it was a British 1788 HC sword. Later I had more photos of the sword and realized it was something else. Pommel and grip shape are different as is the blade curving nearer the point and the tip profile.
    Blades with narrow fullers tend to be made by makers at earlier times before wider fullering was easily made. Fullers were difficult to produce and were first ground out.
    Later the Germans perfected a better method to fuller blades without the tedious time consuming grinding. I believe there is a possibility of the blade being made in America.
    Philadelphia was a large city for the time, capable of supporting the making blades and swords, possibly a low production sword as we haven't found another alike.
    I think the answer lies in finding more information about Wyatt. The sword being sourced in Philadelphia and a Wyatt that assembled swords in the time period is compelling even if not 100% possible.

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    Glen I cannot find any thoughts by you in Potter thread on Potter swords only links. I have no idea what you are talking about on slot hilts or what your thoughts are. I do not know if Potter made swords here in America but I doubt it as does Goldstein on page 98/64. Any way my reference in this thread early on about Potter swords being made by Brits was a reference to Potter being a Tory. I will endeavor to be more cautious about my wording as one never knows what will set you off. However I do doubt that they were made here by one forger and 3 filers. I do however believe they were hilted here but not being there I cannot be sure. Eric
    I cannot find a 276s in Neumann's book.

    Hotspur;*show me that the earrliest slotted hilt was "invented" by the British and I'll stand up and salute Are you saying the Americans were making slot hilts prior to 1750?
    Last edited by Eric Fairbanks; 02-02-2015 at 09:50 PM.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

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