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Thread: WYATT, Philadelphia maker? Looking for info

  1. #26
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    Truly, and because of Goldstein's article, I doubt Potter would be asking for un-fullered blades from England Why import just such blades from England when the British ability to produce and transport more suitable swords dwarfs the capability of any colonial source. Not to mention the very similar swords copying them.

    I'll post up the other Neumann example shortly

    Cheers

    Hotspur; repeating myself from an earlier post in this thread; Clipped blades are a European continent trait. Slotted hits? Well, there is a multiple page thread pinned at the head of this section. I would regard neither singular to a particular country

  2. #27
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    Forgive my archaic 2mp camera

    Nuemann's 276s




    One might shake their heads at Neumann's typologies but there are other instances in the book that need editing and corrections, not unlike a lot of published work. It may be why I haven't published much because I doubt a lot of my own findings at times. Bezdek lists Wyatt lumped in with silversmiths he could find, not that he describes any of Wyatt's work outside of a chapter heading.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; good catch on the Hanger by the way, I had dismissed hangers entirely

  3. #28
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    I found a book by Neumann hiding in plain sight on my book shelf, maybe too many reference books? Never! History of Weapons of the American Revolution.
    It does show similar swords, some not similar but with the pommel shaped the same. I'll have to look at each description to see if Wyatt turns up.
    A silversmith, not so odd when you think of tailors, and several other trades getting in on the act. I have one British naval sword by a goldsmith who is well documented, one of his swords being in the Maritime Museum (UK). Still more infomis required I think to positively pin Wyatt as the silversmith of this sword.
    Neumanns book does describe many times that the blades are imported, if not from Britain then France etc.

  4. #29
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    Yes, when I spotted generations of Wyatts in the same area of London, one has to wonder how their goods might spread. More and more genealogy sources become available all the time. There is a lot of Wyatt silver work out there, so why not send swords abroad with the silver, and pump it in Philly.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; nice sword, anyway

  5. #30
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    That one is listed as s88 in my book and closer yet to Will's. The hilt slots and thickness more inline. The photo and reference I posted was on my tablet and not from book I have with me. I do like a nice spadroon and it is marked to Gill. Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  6. #31
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    With 36"of blade, it's a bit more than a spadroon.

  7. #32
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    Forgive me, what type blade would you call it?
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  8. #33
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    A backsword, pallasch, broadsword. It is the size of some of the older mortuary swords. If you take a rib and half the basket, you kind of have a mort. This one shown has a fairly broad blade and a thin fuller along the back edge. Look to Neumann's other horseman's swords.

    Then again, some call curved blades with urns and stirrup hilts spadroons.

    I would generally draw the line at 33" Of a passel of spadroons here, only one is more than 32 1/2" of blade.

    My backsword/spadroon Skinnier and a hand shorter.


    Cheers

    Hotspur; what's in a name anyway?

  9. #34
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    Earliest reference to slotted hilts:Name:  oldest slotted hilt design.jpg
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  10. #35
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    Nice, one of the oldest and British.

  11. #36
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    Has a marking stamped on guard and scabbard mouth, A/57. The blade thickness tapers evenly and the width narrows from the ricasso and swells towards the clipped point, and with the blade itself curved makes a very pleasing profile. The blade is sharpened 5" from the hilt.
    Not an inexpensive sword to purchase for your troopers. Somewhere there could be an illustration of a trooper from this regiment, if it showed his sword would be remarkable.
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  12. #37
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    The leather strap around the scabbard mouth looking past the grime of time is white buff leather. Maybe I'm assuming it's American and it could be British?
    Neumann shows similar British hilt designs dating from 1768-80 and this is pre British standard pattern swords. The sword could be a British dragoon regiment.
    Most American swords are also unmarked, no name etc.
    I'm just putting out the possibility.

  13. #38
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    American or British she is a beaut. While pommel and guard are well crafted the grip is spiral carved and a clip point. I would not call it either way but it is a nice looking blade. Does the blade show lots of imperfection. Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  14. #39
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    The blade other than some corrosion is dead straight and tapers evenly, well made.

  15. #40
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    A very similar hilt is pictured in Mazanskys book however it does not show the blade of any sword and appears to be an exercise in using the English language to describe the hilts. However the photos do a much better job of describing them and you could not re create a hilt from the text alone. Neither does it describe or picture blades as if they were not part of the sword.
    He states where they can be found but no information of who were issued or owned the swords.
    He states the Royal Armouries has over 200 of that type sword, mine has a flatter bun pommel and I have no idea the blade profile of the swords he mentions.

  16. #41
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    Found this sword claiming to date 1759, a light dragoon sabre, has similar blade less fuller, same style bun pommel but different construction and 33 inch blade.
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    Assuming this sword is pre revolution which British cavalry regiments were stationed in the Philadelphia area? My early history is not very strong.

  17. #42
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    I am leaning towards it being a British sword.
    The markings are stamped not engraved and the blade is fullered. Americans didn't have the capability of fullering blades in this period and unlikely to have metal stamps to mark them.
    Construction appears British and the quality is there.

    Mananskys British Basket Hilted Swords book page 194, IA2. has a very similar hilt.
    Over 200 identical swords to the one illustrated is in the Royal Armouries collection, an example being IX.1848

    Has anyone been there and seen these swords at the Royal Armouries? Mananskys book does not give any provenance/information and does not show or describe the blade.

  18. #43
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    While I do not disagree both of these are most likely British and the 1759 is a tad early in my mind for a sword of this caliber, very shortly there after the Americans must have been making fullered blades albeit of less quality. Nathan Starr started as an apprentice in 1778 if I recall correctly and very early on he made artillery swords that were fullered. They have the sunken cartouche stamp. Jeremiah Snow also made fullered blades during revolution. I cannot right now think of other examples but will add as I do. I am not sure of British Calvary units in Philly as it seems to me the Calvary units were short on service in the states and the British relied heavily on infantry with Dragoon support especially in the areas they controlled. Most Calvary actions were in the southern campaign and were Loyalists and Light Dragoons. I do believe while not decisive clip points, grooved globe grips and single strand wire are indicators of American work or rehilt work but not always. I have seen solingen made swords that were changed to clip point and ofcourse Austrian and British blades that were clip point. Both swords you show are very well made and in Neumann Swords and Blades of American Revolution there is a sword with grip style very similar to the second sword you show. In fact lots British swords that have the grooved globe type hilts and even one or two with the hand hump in them. If it come from Philly it is either an American sword or was stuck in one. Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  19. #44
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    The grip appears round but is actually oval in cross section. Grip has two wires twisted together and what is difficult to see in photos on either side of the twisted wire one straight wire. The 1759 sword I just pictured for an example of similar blade.

  20. #45
    Here's another example of a British cav sword with an unfullered clipped point blade. This one can be seen in it's original context by searching this site for "British Slot Hilts for discussion". So far, this Wyatt sword is the only one I've seen that has a clipped tip and a fuller.

    --ElJay
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  21. #46
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    Here is that Manansky page posted in another thread. Bill Goodwin had posted it up some years ago. Very similar hilt to the Neumann example.


  22. #47
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    I have that book and it does not show or describe the blade. It is the closest so far to a similar hilt.
    The outer bars at the side exit at a higher angle, the sword I have, the bars seem to flow from the guard and widen then narrow again.
    Probably a small number made, with the number 57 on the guard we know at least that many were made.
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  23. #48
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    Wyatt mark, same capital letters. Name:  100_9579.jpg
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  24. #49
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    The possibility of this sword being made or assembled by the Philadelphia silversmith is promising. I believe it is possible this sword was for the First Troop Of Philadelphia. It is the only colonial and Revolutionary War cavalry unit still in existence and the oldest cavalry unit in the National Guard and the US Army.
    In the swords time period there were 88 troopers, the swords number of 57 fits in nicely.
    Small bits of information are coming in, actually more exciting than having it all in one shot.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Mathieson View Post
    Wyatt mark, same capital letters. Name:  100_9579.jpg
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    What is the source of this?

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