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Thread: WYATT, Philadelphia maker? Looking for info

  1. #76
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    all that is written is he mounted swords
    Nope, Wyatt is listed in that category with no other data aside from a date. As far as I am concerned, it was Bezdek culling lists of Philadelphia silversmiths and assuming Wyatt mounted swords. Pursue Dick Bezdek with the provenance of that information and my hunch is he simply pulled it from that 1948 publication of American silversmiths (with no mention of swords).

    Mebbe I am just jaded about so many author's needing to amend publications. Some live long enough to revise their thoughts based on new information. I am adding smilies because I don't want to come across as surly

  2. #77
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    I start with simple searches and resources
    http://www.phila.gov/historical/Pages/default.aspx
    http://libwww.freelibrary.org/explor.../directory.cfm

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Philadelphia+ci...can+revolution

    Are we looking for Joeseph or Peter?
    JOSEPH WYATT 1797 Philadelphia, Pa at Callowhill Street and Cable Lane
    Last edited by Glen C.; 02-27-2015 at 08:17 AM.

  3. #78
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    Thank-you Glen that is helpful. It didn't occur to me Bezdeks book would have mistakes, especially the one bit important to Wyatt, I should have just thinking of Janzens Bayonet bayonet book plus others with all the amendments.

  4. #79
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    One bit of information I noticed recently is the grip wire is magnetic, so a ferrous metal. It is authentic to the piece, no signs of it not being.
    Has anyone seen this on other swords?

  5. #80
    British cav swords of the 1700s use both ferrous and non-ferrous metals for the wire, in my experience. For trooper's swords, iron/steel wire and brass wire was used; probably brass being more common. Copper is scarce on trooper's swords. For officer's, copper and silver wire was common (especially the copper), but you sometimes see brass. Steel/iron wire seems to be pretty rare on the officer's swords.

    The cav hilts that are similar to yours are usually mounted with iron/steel wire.

    Bear in mind that the comment above is based only on what I've seen: I've got no documentation!

  6. #81
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    It seems silversmiths in early America did not limit themselves to silver hilted swords but expanded into all metal works.

    Paul Revere was a prosperous and prominent Boston silversmith, who helped organize an intelligence and alarm system to keep watch on the British military. Revere later served as a Massachusetts militia officer, though his service culminated after the Penobscot Expedition, one of the most disastrous campaigns of the American Revolutionary War, for which he was absolved of blame. Following the war, Revere returned to his silversmith trade and used the profits from his expanding business to finance his work in iron casting, bronze bell and cannon casting, and the forging of copper bolts and spikes. Finally in 1800 he became the first American to successfully roll copper into sheets for use as sheathing on naval vessels..
    This makes it quite plausible that the Philadelphia silversmith Joseph Wyatt made cavalry swords.

    I should look at Wyatts in Britain to either gain or exclude possibilities.

  7. #82
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    If I am reading correctly Company letter over Regiment number was a typical Regiment of Foot mark for British units. A over 57 would be 57th Regiment of Foot and these slot hilts with branches were typical of swords used in the Americas. It is possible as in Bazelon article that a foot sword hilt was salvaged and rehilted with calvary blade years later. Wyatt was in the center of sword production for the US and could have commissioned a local bladesmith to build it with his stamp. Very common for the era. While your sword is not of the quality of a British sword of 1798 it is well built and would have required an experienced bladesmith to build it. Most American built swords of this time were not etched but most British swords were. It is the only way I see in my mind for a slot hilt at this time as they were out of vogue for Americans much less British. Eric
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    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  8. #83
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    The marking A would be the troop and 57 the trooper. Hilt is too large for a foot soldiers. The balance is right for a cavalry sword, too good to be made from just adding a blade to a hilt.
    Appears British and is of quality, very similar to a couple unnamed and Samuel Harvey sword pommels in Neumanns book.
    Wyatt of Philadelphia could be misleading, not enough info about him to know. As Glen mentioned on Mananskys book the fact that Wyatt mounted swords could have been just assumed without any fact.
    The blade is well made, tapers in width and thickness too well for a blacksmiths hammer.
    Maybe I should be looking for a Wyatt in Britain

  9. #84
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    This sword being in an earlier time period then what I usually collect I find I'm retracting somewhat of what I wrote earlier.
    The fact that myself and others cannot find a Wyatt in Britain that made or sold swords points me back to the Philadelphia silversmith, and why not?
    British did keep good records, if there was a sword maker named Wyatt in Britain he would have been recognized and listed.
    Just not enough information to positive, coincidence a Wyatt, a silversmith in Philadelphia that may have mounted swords and the sword found there. Bezdek does not show where this sword mounting info is found. His Wyatt notation does not make reference to his bibliography and there are several more obvious books listed there.
    I have emailed the auction house to find out any of its previous history though nothing yet.

  10. #85
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    I also have changed my mind many times on this sword but ohh what fun it is. So the A would be Troop A and the 57, Sword 57 or Trooper 57 speaking in British of course? I would guess I need to learn more on the handling of infantry verses calvary but it is confusing. The Ames m1833 is a calvary or dragoon sword and handles like a clumsy stick. The m1742 and m1751 British infantry sword is short and has heavy hilt but handles very well. The Early 19th century French light calvary handle like a dream as does the British m1796 and both have light hilts. Unlike the British lion head calvary swords of Revolution which had big heavy hilts. Is it in the blade or the hilt? Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  11. #86
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    Eric it is stamped in the blade fairly deeply, somewhat filled with old corrosion. Difficult to get a sense of things from just photos.Name:  100_9499.jpg
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  12. #87
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    Just a couple blade photos to show how well the blade is made, smooth with barely a ripple.Name:  100_9655.jpg
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  13. #88
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    I found this PBS video. It shows a revolutionary sword with brass 3 bar hilt but what is interesting is the style of the slotted hilt with the outer bars exiting the hilt at a similar angle. An American trait for cavalry hilts of the period?
    http://video.pbs.org/video/1899671051/

  14. #89
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    Not to speak too poorly of Rafael but I have purchased four swords from the man and none of them correctly id'd. A recent email discussion with him had me reminding him of those purchases. He generally does ok with most American attributions but I question much of what he describes for this sword. Rather than addressing the sword's provenance specifically, he is painting with a broad brush of generality. I do not see the hilt as an American trait for cavalry swords of the ARW period.

    The Roadshow presentations and appraisals are notoriously poor.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; Rafael has a neat Reddell&Bate sword on sale
    Last edited by Glen C.; 03-12-2015 at 09:19 AM.

  15. #90
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    Very true, roadshow and all TV. to be taken with a chunk of rock salt. It is just the first other sword I have seen with the outer bars attached at a similar angle. Without provenance it gets me no closer.
    The sword pictured looks like a machete maker casting a brass guard to imitate a British cavalry sword hilt and putting it on one of their blades for export.
    One way of cheaply arming people.

  16. #91
    Hello,
    I recently registered with this forum and my account was activated. I want to make a post on a couple swords I own and I want to know more information about them. However, I can't find where to post or the button to push to make posts. I've emailed the person who registered and activated my account but they don't respond back. So I'm using this reply thread that maybe someone who reads this can help make posts. I'm wanting to know about two British swords I own, one marked only with the name "Harvey" and the other only marked "Woolley". Thanks for any help.
    Ralph Abbruzzese

  17. #92
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    Clip point by Gill

    Here is a wide fullered clip point by Gill with slot hilt and no branches. Not knowing enough on British swords I cannot say it is American. Your sword does have forging anomalies and signs of hand work on blade. Your hilt is beautiful and if you have ever built a guard out of even todays extruded flat stock it is no easy task to do such a nice job. American or British I just can't see them built by same craftsman. Eric
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    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  18. #93
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    upper left click on "Forum" then under communities you will see "Antique Arms & Armour Community" immediately under is " Antique & Military Sword Forum" click on it and that should do it

  19. #94
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    posting new thread

    Hope this helps
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    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  20. #95
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    Eric most of what you see is from corrosion. The blade itself is very straight, smooth and tapered evenly, no wobbles, humps or bumps.
    Any marks are pitting or staining. It is difficult to get a good idea without actually having it in hand. There are only two very minor manufacturing lines that can barely be felt with the fingernail, in fact most of what you see is not felt. Unfortunately most of the blade has had some level of past corrosion which removes the original finish.

  21. #96
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    Name:  100_9662.jpg
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    yes over a distance the fullers appear not perfect but then no sword does even if rolled. Too bad I can't send a 3d copy of it, soon by the looks of technology.
    Last edited by Will Mathieson; 03-12-2015 at 10:34 AM.

  22. #97
    Thanks!

  23. #98
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    The sword pictured looks like a machete maker casting a brass guard to imitate a British cavalry sword hilt and putting it on one of their blades for export.
    One way of cheaply arming people
    Casting a guard rather than punching cutouts out of sheet would have been anything but cheaply arming people, export or not. When during the ARW would have a machete blade have been considered in a cavalry role? I am sorry if I can't follow such logic.

  24. #99
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    The blade shown is short and thin unlike British cavalry swords such as the 1788p. Of course the 1750's British infantry hangers have similar blades that are flat.
    The term machete blade was not the best for sure. Brass casting is more easily done than iron, I was thinking of the tons of cast brass India churns out from small shops, would be no more difficult back in the 1700's.

  25. #100
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    Brass casting is more easily done than iron, I was thinking of the tons of cast brass India churns out from small shops, would be no more difficult back in the 1700's.
    That is why iron/steel hilts were formed/cut/punched from sheet stock or welded up pieces. That India produces lots of cast hilts does not speak to the availability and cost of brass in the 18th century. Sure, there was lots of casting going on on that side of the pond and briquet a good example arms produced to arm troopers quickly. Regulation hangers in Britain as well...yet...I see little specifically related to the Wyatt sword. It is a bit like labeling all dove head sabers as derived from the 1796 light cavalry sword, or that all unmarked Solingen "wristbreaker" cavalry sabers must have been used by the South during the American Civil War.

    I appreciate the continued research of your baby.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; I gave up researching my slotted hilt years ago but I am always hopeful a twin will appear out of the blue

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