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Thread: #59 WW1 Bat' Issue Type

  1. #1
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    #59 WW1 Bat' Issue Type

    I applied some focus to my collecting of things pointy a few years ago now and most here will know that the object of said focus is the legendary kukri.

    I turned 51 this year and it is with great pleasure to post my latest kukri and it's number 59 of my antique or vintage kulris. But this is the cleanest battalion type kukri I have ever handled let alone owned. It has most definitely been carried and used but so well looked after. (Cleaned & oiled)

    It is a partial tang kukri with that beautiful sweeping profile so sadly lost after WW1. The blade is very slightly hollow forged with a single groove cut deep along the spine. It has a very appealing and probably the original bevel and a very keen edge. The kaudi or notch is a very simple affair, a very clean notch with a small triangular peg. This all terminates at the steel bolster.
    The handle is very simple, purposeful and perfect in the hand. It is wooden and has a slight groove in front of the finger ring. To the rear the handle flairs and drops to the steel but plate, this is held with two screws.
    The scabbard is simple and traditional leather over wood, but does not have slots for Karda (utility blade), Chacmak (steel) or Khissa (pouch). The leather is tooled with outline lining it also seems to have been treated with some form of waterproofing substance. (I can’t place the smell) this could explain why the blade is so well preserved.


    Specs are;
    Overall 430mm
    Blade 310mm
    Handle 120mm
    Arc 320mm
    Belly 58mm
    Drop 85mm
    Spine @ ricasso 9mm
    Spine @ belly 6mm
    Weight 554g












    This is an extremely fast and nimble kukri in hand and would make a frightful side arm but I would equally love to have it on the belt as a campcraft tool.
    Many thanks for viewing and I shall look forward to hearing the views of the forum.
    Kindest regards

    Captain.
    PARTING THE CLOUDS SEEKING THE WAY
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions not their own facts.

  2. #2
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    That kukri looks probably as good now as it did when it was made

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    Quote Originally Posted by samuel kirke View Post
    That kukri looks probably as good now as it did when it was made


    Thanks Samuel
    It feels very good in the hand.
    It has been extremely well looked after and is as you say as good as new. It doesn't look a 100+ years old just goes to show if you look after steel it will stay bright.

    Captain.
    PARTING THE CLOUDS SEEKING THE WAY
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions not their own facts.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by David Holloway View Post
    It has been extremely well looked after and is as you say as good as new. It doesn't look a 100+ years old just goes to show if you look after steel it will stay bright.
    Captain.
    A lovely well made piece of the era, & as you say very well looked after. They don't make them like that anymore!

    Spiral

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    Nice find David, they are amongst my favourite military kukri
    This one was picked up at the battle of Aubers 9th May 1915
    Name:  bat aubers 9th may 1915.jpg
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    Name:  bat aubers 9th may 1915 but & kit.jpg
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    This one at Gallipoli which belonged to Rifleman Dhanbahadur Limbu; of the 2/10th GR, who was Killed in Action on 2nd July 1915 in the battle of Gully Ravine.
    Name:  2:10 kuk.jpg
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    This one belonged to Jusai Gurung; of the 1/6th Gurkhas also at Gallipoli
    Name:  jusai kukri 1st 6th.jpg
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    Name:  jusai butt.jpg
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    This one was a pressie from Mum
    Name:  bat butt blade.jpg
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    Name:  bat butt.jpg
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    And this was my latest find, beautifully made, obviously not the original leather covering
    Name:  Kotli Loharan Battalion.jpg
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    Name:  Kolti Loharan butt.jpg
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    Butts of WW1 Battalion
    1/6th GR, 2/8th GR, 2/10th GR and the Aubers kukri
    Name:  WW1 butts.jpg
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    Top to bottom
    Aubers kukri
    2/10th
    2/8th
    1/6th
    Name:  WW1 Batt all four.jpg
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  6. #6
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    Thank you Simon.
    They are one of my favourite kukri types and I have a modest collection of the type. I have three issued kukri with markings one of which traced to a rifleman who survived the horrors of WWl and the Afghanistan 1919 and Iraq. I also have nine further unmarked bat issue type. I shall get them all together for a photo when time permits.
    PARTING THE CLOUDS SEEKING THE WAY
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    That would be great to see David

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Hengle View Post
    And this was my latest find, beautifully made, obviously not the original leather covering
    Name:  Kotli Loharan Battalion.jpg
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    Name:  Kolti Loharan butt.jpg
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    A nice grouping Simon, although this would appear to be a J.D Pensioner&Sons example, rather than a WW1 Battalion issue piece.


    Great addition David, well done!

    Here's one of mine I recently excavated:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Nice example Chris. Is it a marked one I can't quite see on your photographs, I see that both K&C are marked but again can't quite make them out.
    I just love this type of kukri, the workmanship is outstanding and I think the steel is better. Many of this era seem to patina a greyer colour than later kuks. I do have you to thank for two of my WWl of this type.

    All the best
    Captain
    PARTING THE CLOUDS SEEKING THE WAY
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions not their own facts.

  10. #10
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    Thanks David,

    As you know I am still in the process of photographing the bulk of my collection, so there will be more to follow. I've attached another, again similar to your piece.

    Yes, Kukri, Karda and Chakmak are all marked, although not all identically! A good variation of markings though.

    These blades are still an undervalued area in my opinion, so you have done well to amass a small horde of them!

    I hope to have a little more to say on the subject in the coming months.

    Happy hunting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher J G Scott View Post
    A nice grouping Simon, although this would appear to be a J.D Pensioner&Sons example, rather than a WW1 Battalion issue piece.
    Chris are you saying mine is a J.D Pensioner & Sons made kukri?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Hengle View Post
    Chris are you saying mine is a J.D Pensioner & Sons made kukri?
    It certainly appears to be, down to the screw in the butt, and the removed lanyard ring.

    I presume it carries this marking on one side?
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    Chris, Plenty of pre-WW1 and WW1 battalion kukri had screws going back in through the butt plate and had the stick tang peened over as in my kukri, and as per one in the GM, and it would be almost impossible to say who the specific maker of the kukri was in Kotli Loharan unless they stamped the kukri with their makers name.
    This is my take on the kukri; it is a WW1 battalion issue kukri made in Kotli Loharan for one of the battalions entitled to wear kukri, most likely a Gurkha Battalion, but no proof. At the time of its making Kotli Loharan was in North West India (now Pakistan).
    We know that kukri made in Kolti Loharan were issued to the Gurkhas, the odd one having a battalion and regimental marking i.e. 3/8 and service number.
    The earliest reference I have for Kotli Loharan being an arsenal centre is in 1880 when Lord Egerton writes 'that in the Punjab the great centres of arms manufacture were Lahore, Gujrat. Fauja Singh Bajwa adds Kotli Loharan Amritsar, Wazirabab, and Kashmir.' (Lahore to Kotli Loharan is about 84 miles)
    There is also an article in the 1920 "Gazetteer of the Sialkot District"
    "Kotli Loharan consists of two large villages of Lohars (ironsmiths) lying about five miles north-west of Sialkot. All kinds of articles for use and ornament are made, such as shields and arms, betel-nut cutters, knives, boxes, plates, inkstands, and so on. The material used is iron, and gold and silver are used in inlaying. . . . . The Lohars of these villages are now very well off, having earned large sums as armourers and shoe-smiths during the War.
    There are some twenty concerns which turn out manufactured articles of iron and steel, including swords, spearheads, gurkha knives, razors, and stirrups. The workmanship is excellent in most cases."

  14. #14
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    My response in Bold

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Hengle View Post
    Chris, Plenty of pre-WW1 and WW1 battalion kukri had screws going back in through the butt plate and had the stick tang peened over as in my kukri, and as per one in the GM, and it would be almost impossible to say who the specific maker of the kukri was in Kotli Loharan unless they stamped the kukri with their makers name.

    Indeed, plenty of early 20thC kukri do indeed exhibit one or other of those two features. I would challenge you to show an actual battalion marked piece which shows both. However, the kukri we are discussing does not show a peened tang, but rather the remains of a Lanyard ring.
    This feature (amongst others) coupled with the words "Kotli Loharan" on the right hand side of the blade indicate manufacture by (U)J.D. Pensioner&Sons. Their kukris are quite distinctive. Their makers marking, or the remains thereof, will be found on the left hand side. Would you care to show us the left hand side ricasso of your kukri? I have illustrated an identical example for your enlightenment, and another with ring intact.



    This is my take on the kukri; it is a WW1 battalion issue kukri made in Kotli Loharan for one of the battalions entitled to wear kukri, most likely a Gurkha Battalion, but no proof. At the time of its making Kotli Loharan was in North West India (now Pakistan).
    We know that kukri made in Kolti Loharan were issued to the Gurkhas, the odd one having a battalion and regimental marking i.e. 3/8 and service number.

    The earliest reference I have for Kotli Loharan being an arsenal centre is in 1880 when Lord Egerton writes 'that in the Punjab the great centres of arms manufacture were Lahore, Gujrat. Fauja Singh Bajwa adds Kotli Loharan Amritsar, Wazirabab, and Kashmir.' (Lahore to Kotli Loharan is about 84 miles)
    There is also an article in the 1920 "Gazetteer of the Sialkot District"
    "Kotli Loharan consists of two large villages of Lohars (ironsmiths) lying about five miles north-west of Sialkot. All kinds of articles for use and ornament are made, such as shields and arms, betel-nut cutters, knives, boxes, plates, inkstands, and so on. The material used is iron, and gold and silver are used in inlaying. . . . . The Lohars of these villages are now very well off, having earned large sums as armourers and shoe-smiths during the War.
    There are some twenty concerns which turn out manufactured articles of iron and steel, including swords, spearheads, gurkha knives, razors, and stirrups. The workmanship is excellent in most cases."

    Thank you for the cut and paste geography lesson.
    Attached Images Attached Images    

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    Seriously Chris some of your comments are laughable, and I fail to see what your pictures prove, I certainly can't see any makers mark on yours for sure, unless you would like do a better picture showing the makers mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Hengle View Post
    Seriously Chris some of your comments are laughable, and I fail to see what your pictures prove, I certainly can't see any makers mark on yours for sure, unless you would like do a better picture showing the makers mark
    Really Simon? Which ones? Show me the error of my ways. I am always happy to learn about kukri, especially from a self confessed kukri guru! (I don't meet many of them, around my way!)

    I have noted that you're kukri was made by (U) J.D Pensioner&Sons of Kotli Loharan. I have stated why I believe it is made by that particular company, and provided images of an identical kukri, with identical "Kotli Loharan" markings. I have attached images of the markings of my kukri to the bottom of this post (so you know what to look for on your own example)

    You refute my suggestion that the kukri is made by this firm. You have so far failed to add additional pictures of your own piece, with close nups of the markings thereon.

    Your move.
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  17. #17
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    You are to sure of yourself, and you have made an erroneous assumption, I suggest you read again about what I said about Kotli Loharan

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Hengle View Post
    You are to sure of yourself, and you have made an erroneous assumption, I suggest you read again about what I said about Kotli Loharan
    I am confident that only one KNOWN maker stamps their kukri with that marking. Your reluctance to show further images of the kukri in question confirms my suspicion.

    Post clear images of both sides of the ricasso of your kukri, and the matter will be put to rest.

    If it turns out to be a (U) J.D Pensioner and Sons example, then you may end up thanking me, as they seem to make good money in the current market.

    If I am wrong, and it is produced by somebody else, we all win and learn of a new kukri manufacturer operating in Kotli during the same period.

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    You still obviously haven't properly read what I wrote before, here it is again;
    We know that kukri made in Kolti Loharan were issued to the Gurkhas, the odd one having a battalion and regimental marking i.e. 3/8 and service number.
    The earliest reference I have for Kotli Loharan being an arsenal centre is in 1880 when Lord Egerton writes 'that in the Punjab the great centres of arms manufacture were Lahore, Gujrat. Fauja Singh Bajwa adds Kotli Loharan Amritsar, Wazirabab, and Kashmir.' (Lahore to Kotli Loharan is about 84 miles)
    There is also an article in the 1920 "Gazetteer of the Sialkot District"
    "Kotli Loharan consists of two large villages of Lohars (ironsmiths) lying about five miles north-west of Sialkot. All kinds of articles for use and ornament are made, such as shields and arms, betel-nut cutters, knives, boxes, plates, inkstands, and so on. The material used is iron, and gold and silver are used in inlaying. . . . . The Lohars of these villages are now very well off, having earned large sums as armourers and shoe-smiths during the War.
    There are some twenty concerns which turn out manufactured articles of iron and steel, including swords, spearheads, gurkha knives, razors, and stirrups. The workmanship is excellent in most cases."
    PS I have put loads of pics up on a well known social network site

  20. #20
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    Once again, my response in Bold.

    Quote Originally Posted by simon hengle View Post
    you still obviously haven't properly read what i wrote before, here it is again;
    we know that kukri made in kolti loharan were issued to the gurkhas, the odd one having a battalion and regimental marking i.e. 3/8 and service number.
    The earliest reference i have for kotli loharan being an arsenal centre is in 1880 when lord egerton writes 'that in the punjab the great centres of arms manufacture were lahore, gujrat. Fauja singh bajwa adds kotli loharan amritsar, wazirabab, and kashmir.' (lahore to kotli loharan is about 84 miles)
    there is also an article in the 1920 "gazetteer of the sialkot district"
    "kotli loharan consists of two large villages of lohars (ironsmiths) lying about five miles north-west of sialkot. All kinds of articles for use and ornament are made, such as shields and arms, betel-nut cutters, knives, boxes, plates, inkstands, and so on. The material used is iron, and gold and silver are used in inlaying. . . . . The lohars of these villages are now very well off, having earned large sums as armourers and shoe-smiths during the war.
    There are some twenty concerns which turn out manufactured articles of iron and steel, including swords, spearheads, gurkha knives, razors, and stirrups. The workmanship is excellent in most cases."

    Simon, are you actually capable of any conversational riposte which does not involve the use of cut and paste?

    ps i have put loads of pics up on a well known social network site

    Well done. It should be no challenge for you to put them here then, should it?

  21. #21
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    I'll cut and paste for you again, as you seem to have missed a vital piece of what I wrote for you before;
    "kotli loharan consists of two large villages of lohars (ironsmiths) lying about five miles north-west of sialkot. All kinds of articles for use and ornament are made, such as shields and arms, betel-nut cutters, knives, boxes, plates, inkstands, and so on. The material used is iron, and gold and silver are used in inlaying. . . . . The lohars of these villages are now very well off, having earned large sums as armourers and shoe-smiths during the war.
    There are some twenty concerns which turn out manufactured articles of iron and steel, including swords, spearheads, gurkha knives, razors, and stirrups. The workmanship is excellent in most cases."
    I feel no need to answer to your demands BTW, if you wish to see the pics, you know where to go, cheers Simon
    Last edited by Simon Hengle; 06-29-2015 at 02:51 AM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Hengle View Post
    I feel no need to answer to your demands BTW, if you wish to see the pics, you know where to go, cheers Simon
    Simon,

    I have read it, and I have missed nothing. The key word is "includes". It does not mean that all twenty "concerns" produced all of those items.

    I have not demanded anything. Common courtesy would suggest that if you oppose my point of view you prove your own by posting the pictures. It is a simple action which would have ended this thread days ago. Your reluctance to do so speaks volumes.

    The debate is here, in the open, where it can be read by all and contributed to by anybody else who may wish to do so. I have no idea where you keep your collection of special pictures, but I feel no need to be lured there by you.

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