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Thread: Military sabre ID please.

  1. #1

    Military sabre ID please.

    Hi all,
    I'd like some help identifying a sword I have recently inherited. It is one of a few I've just started researching, and can't quite decide what it is.....
    The third one down in this picture:
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    Many thanks in advance....I hope the pictures are okay..
    Last edited by Giles Kirby; 10-26-2015 at 10:51 AM.

  2. #2
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    Far from an expert myself , but looks to be an 1860 pattern light calvary saber .

  3. #3
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  4. #4
    Ah, I thought it was from the US....any clues as to the strange markings on the blade? Can't find them anywhere, my google-fu is weak tonight! Might they be dating stamps?
    Last edited by Giles Kirby; 10-26-2015 at 03:07 PM.

  5. #5
    And am I correct in thinking the shorter cutlass in the top picture is a police issue one?

  6. #6
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    Hi Giles

    Welcome aboard

    The large Sabre is not of US manufacture. It appears to be a European made version of the French 1822. This is not a US maker's mark. I do not recognize the maker's mark. off the top of my head. The sabre also seems to have been blued, at least partly so. Are there decorations on the blued section?



    The US light cavalry sword had a narrower and straighter blade. This sabre you show is more similar to the US m1840. The light most often had a contoured grip and fewer turns of wire. There were many Prussian makers of the French 1822 and that is also what the US used as a pattern for their 1840.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; US makers marks will be spelled out and the date marked in full on this type

    The shorter sword does look like a police or artillery sword.
    Last edited by Glen C.; 10-26-2015 at 03:43 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giles Kirby View Post
    Ah, I thought it was from the US....any clues as to the strange markings on the blade? Can't find them anywhere, my google-fu is weak tonight! Might they be dating stamps?
    The scales are the mark of Alex Coppel, a Solingen sword maker. The mark on the other side looks like a German inspector mark. This could well be a US sword. During the Civil War both sides imported a large number of M1840 cavalry sabers made by German makers. The US M1840 was copied from the French M1822.

  8. #8
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    Ah, a set of scales. The mark for Alex Coppel, Solingen. So it is possibly an import to the US.

  9. #9
    Thank you so much chaps, that's food for thought. So...possibly a Solingen made US 1840 pattern sabre..civil war period?
    Is it possible to date it from the marks shown? I'll give it a light clean soon, and check for any other marks. It does look like it has been blued at some stage, but there is not much remaining..
    Last edited by Giles Kirby; 10-26-2015 at 04:23 PM.

  10. #10
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    Any dating information on a French sword should be found engraved on the spine with inspection stamps on the blade.
    The journey not the destination

  11. #11
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    Sorry my last post sent before I refreshed the thread to see the posts identifying a Solingen made export. Is there a narrow second fuller close to the spine of the blade?
    The journey not the destination

  12. #12
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    In fairness, lots of French cavalry swords do not have either a secondary fuller or engraving on the spine. Lots do, but not all. This looks more like a European than US version of the sword to me - lots of French army swords were bought from Solingen and of course this model was also used by the Belgians, the Dutch and some of the German states...

  13. #13
    Okay, now I'm not sure....I think I'll have a little clean, and see if there are any other markings on it. Thanks for the info so far. I thought it would be easier to identify! Maybe I'll look at the others first...

  14. #14
    Hi Giles,
    Nice collection. Would you be able to show some more of the boys smallsword (if it is one).
    I think I have a similar item.

  15. #15
    Thanks Gene, it's not all of them, I've got a few others in a box too.
    A couple of pictures of the small sword:
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    It appears to missing the guard...the closest I could find is this one, but would appreciate any more info.
    [/URL]

  16. #16
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    http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...amp-C-sword-ID
    Here is some info on WK &C by Dale and George.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  17. #17
    Hi Giles

    Interesting little sword.
    As Eric says, the maker is Weyersberg Kirschbaum & Cie.
    The blade looks like a civil service or diplomatic service type to me.
    But I don't recognize the sword as a particular pattern.
    What are the dimensions of the hilt and the overall length?
    I mean I take it that the grip is too small for an adult hand?

  18. #18
    I'm away for work at the moment, but will be home again Sunday/Monday, so I will post the exact measurements.
    It is quite small though, although an adult hand could fit the hilt. I'm not sure it would be much good in a fight! I'd rather have a pointy stick myself!

  19. #19
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    I do not think the blade is original to the smallsword. It looks a century younger. WKC formed in 1883.
    La vida amable, el enemigo hombre fuerte, ordinario el peligro, natural la defensa, la Ciencia para conseguirla infalible, su estudio forçoso, y el exercicio necessario conviene al que huviere de ser Diestro, no ignore la teorica, para que en la practica, el cuerpo, el braço, y los instrumentos obren lo conveniente a su perfeccion. --Don Luis Pacheco de Narvaez.

  20. #20
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    I believe some of these to be as late as indicated. I would question it myself except seeing a Horstmann example identical to these. If not late 1800s, then the Horstmann sword (with complete scabbard) would be nno earlier than about 1830.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; the Horstmann has actually gone up in price when it didn't sell for more than a year

  21. #21
    It would be interesting to know what type of guard was originally on the "small sword".
    I wonder if it had a shell or boat shaped guard?

    I have a similar sized small sword with a pierced blade and double shell guard.

    Glen,
    Do you know anything about this general type of sword?
    What was their purpose?
    Last edited by Gene Wilkinson; 11-01-2015 at 05:52 AM.

  22. #22
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    Hi Gene

    My impression is that as far as the Horstmann goes, it is late and must have been targeted at diplomatic use. I have two French epee that are clearly a century apart, so it would not surprise me that hilts from the previous century carried over. The only resources I have are Hartzler, Peterson, Flayderman and the Bashford Dean books. Smallswords are not my forte'

    Cheers

    Hotspur; attached a few pics of the Horstmann
    Attached Images Attached Images        
    Last edited by Glen C.; 11-01-2015 at 08:39 AM.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Glen C. View Post
    Hi Gene

    My impression is that as far as the Horstmann goes, it is late and must have been targeted at diplomatic use. I have two French epee that are clearly a century apart, so it would not surprise me that hilts from the previous century carried over. The only resources I have are Hartzler, Peterson, Flayderman and the Bashford Dean books. Smallswords are not my forte'

    Cheers

    Hotspur; attached a few pics of the Horstmann
    Hi Glen,
    Good catch.
    That's a dead ringer hilt wise for Giles sword.
    Perhaps I'm misjudging its scale from the pictures.
    The one I have (that I thought was similar size) is far too small to hold normally.
    Were these deliberately made too small to use?
    Last edited by Gene Wilkinson; 11-01-2015 at 04:38 PM.

  24. #24
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    Total length on the Horstmann is 33 3/4" with the blade 27 1/4". That actually seems pretty reasonable to me, pinching the quillion block using the pas de ane for steerage.. A sword that first struck me as tiny when first viewed in person were the German civil degen but I guess I has just gotten accustomed to the size surprise when first we meet I have a slotted hilt spadroon with a 32"blade that is too small for me to hold in a hammer grip but electing more of a smallsword grip, it fits fine (I have quite large hands). That fighting sword has a hilt shorter than the numbers of the sword above.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; photos always make things seem bigger if there is nothing there to guaged the dimension

  25. #25
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    Small smallsword

    My question would be the continued theme in this thread. How small can a small sword be? I believe this one to be a later example even than a WK &C but only a guess. No measurments with me only a few photos, but it is small in the grip. It does have a nice brass scabbard that is some what beat up. The blade is very flexible, limber even.
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

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