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Thread: 1822p (Manton?) scabbard right?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
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    1822p (Manton?) scabbard right?

    Hi all,

    I took a punt on the following sword which was listed at auction immediately preceding one very obvious Indian reproduction 1822p and a suspicious 1827p both of which had greatly inflated estimates compared to this item.

    This struck me as a cynical attempt to get people bidding on a genuine sword with the intention of lending an air of credibility to following reproductions.

    Both of the suspect items were passed so it seems like no one was fooled. Seeing obvious reproductions in the same auction did however make me examine this sword very closely and question several times whether it was genuine.

    Like I said I took a slight risk and ultimately I'm happy that it is a genuine example of an attractive and solid 1822/45. The grip is shagreen, the casting of the hilt is of good quality and the etch work is of much higher quality than the usual reproduction pieces.

    From the proof slug and etching surround I believe this may be a Manton. Anyone able to verify ?

    The folding guard and Wilkinson blade date it 1845 to 1860 and the blade has been service sharpened and is remains sharp which together with the solid feel of the weapon suggests to me that it was purchased by an officer expecting to be in a theatre of war.

    However I am not entirely convinced about the scabbard. Once in my hand there are a few issues I wasnt sure about but this is the first 1822p scabbard I have handled so I reserve judgement and no doubt you experts will be able to help clarify.

    It is 537grams or just under 1lb 3oz. Is this about right? I'm sure I've seen weight mentioned in a thread on here but I can't find it.

    The neck of the scabbard around the mouthpiece appears slightly distorted as if the mouthpiece was not original to the scabbard and has been forced to fit. Is this normal?

    The neck of the scabbard shows damage as if it has been levered out with no subtlety and there is evidence of some sort of epoxy around the present mouthpiece. This might just be a poor modern repair job but as evidence of tampering it increased my suspicion.

    I am aware that some repro mouthpieces have a solid appearance with no steps/ridges and I wondered whether an original mouthpiece has been fitted to a repro scabbard in order to disguise it at first glance.

    Finally the 'patina' around the neck seems a little suspicious as if painted on although less so around the bands.

    On going revisting the sellers description I note that it says only that the sword was "fitted in a brass scabbard", not that the scabbard was original.

    I must say it would not have stopped me bidding on the sword and I'm not disappointed however if it transpires that the scabbard is not original I feel that the price paid would be a little high.

    What are your opinions on the scabbard please, original or repro? Am I being too suspicious?

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    Last edited by james.elstob; 02-22-2017 at 01:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    P.S. if this hasn't drawn blood in its past life, it has now after I stabbed myself in the bloody ankle with it when carrying it up the stairs.

    Stupidity knows no bounds!

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    James, from your photos both sword and scabbard look period, however it's quite obvious the scabbard is much longer than the sword so clearly mismatched, also what leads you to believe the proof slug is Manton? PS, keep it in the scabbard!

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Scabbard mouth may be glued on, the screws are missing to retain it. Authentic scabbard, but as Ben says not original to the sword. It may have had a steel scabbard that rusted away.
    Brass scabbard is for field officers, major and above.

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bevan View Post
    James, from your photos both sword and scabbard look period, however it's quite obvious the scabbard is much longer than the sword so clearly mismatched, also what leads you to believe the proof slug is Manton? PS, keep it in the scabbard!
    Hi Ben, yes I agree that the scabbard now seems far too long for the sword now you mention it. I'm glad you consider it to be period though.

    Item 2432 in Old Swords had the same slug; PROVED over fleur de Lis very much in keeping with my version whereas other slugs with the Fleur de Lis have slightly different lettering style/dimensions/look/spacing etc. It just looks like it's straight out the same mould where the other examples do not.

    In addition to exactly the same slug 2432, is the only other example I can find with the same foliage / sunburst pattern surrounding the slug. It's very faint on my example but otherwise the exact same.

    Finally whereas my sword has no makers name or address item 2432 is said to have the Manton address 116 Jermyn Street, London, although the images uploaded do not show this so I can't verify the description is correct.

    At present however it is the closest match i have been able to identify.

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