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Thread: Unusual French Officers Cavalry Sabre?

  1. #1
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    Unusual French Officers Cavalry Sabre?

    Good morning. I am new to the Sword Forum and I hope this is the right Forum section. I was wondering if the professionals here can help me identify an old cavalry sabre that I am researching for a friend. It appears to be a French Officers Model 1822 Cavalry Sabre, but it is pretty dark with corrosion and surface rust on the scabbard, so I may have missed some markings. There are a few aspects of this saber that I cannot find on any other website with M1822 photos including: the amethyst(?) stone in the hilt grip, the eagle on the pommel, and the flat stamped wire (vs. two twisted wires wrapped together) around the shark skin grip. I am tempted to clean it up a little to maybe locate more markings but would like your opinion on that, too. Can you help me identify what it is, when it was made, and its approximate value? Photos of the saber are at: http://s95.photobucket.com/user/Fire.../library/M1822. I can provide more specific photos if that might help. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
    Last edited by Bill Waite; 03-26-2017 at 08:54 AM.

  2. #2
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    That's beautiful, I love it.

  3. #3
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    Good evening Bill,
    Most probably a saber "de fantaisie", based on the model 1822 and made for a 2nd Empire officer.
    Dan

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    Thanks for the input. I haven't had much luck finding any photos of similar sabres with all the same characteristics. I'm still wondering about the eagle on the pommel? Any significance to this eagle? My friend wants to sell it but so far I haven't been able to give him even a ball park figure of its value. Any suggestions about how (or IF) I should clean it up a little? I believe there are some inspectors marks on the scabbard but cannot read them because of the surface rust. Bill

  5. #5
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    Bill, it looks to me as if the pommel cap might have been originally cast with a crown above the eagle because the eagle is positioned off-center. An easy thing to grind it off for a sword destined for a non-monarchy market. The blade etchings can speak volumes about a sword. Have you any photos of the etching you could post?

  6. #6
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    Lets try this...the blade etching photos should be available at: http://s95.photobucket.com/user/Fire.../library/M1822

  7. #7
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    Gentlemen,
    I have a little problem....
    The saber is signed by Coulaux as an Entrepreneur.
    That said, I see two stamps on the ricasso :
    - an "E under a crown",
    - a "G under a star".
    The "G" correspond to productions around 1895.

    The question :
    What is the "E" , since there is no "E" stamp on Klingenthal products except the long shot of Eberhard who ceased stamping in 1783 ?

    Now :
    - pommel is odd shaped,
    - eagle on pommel could be american,
    - the eagle on the pommel shall not be 2nd Empire (1852-1870) when the "G" stamp appears in 1895,
    - the bands of the scabbard seem brass and are decorated with floral decor, exactly like on an american model 1860 cavalry saber,
    - the drag of the scabbard is similar to the french 1845 models and not like the usual models 1822,
    - the blade etchings are not typically french
    - never seen an améthyst inlaid.

    So gentlemen, some fodder for a sunday afternoon thoughts.

  8. #8
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    And we don't have any american usual id's.....

  9. #9
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    Not m1860 but possibly m1872 US calvary saber. The cap bottle looking pommel and eagle on pommel but it looks odd to me. Not my area know little on these Richard and Tim know much more on later US types. Perhaps French attempt to enter US market. Etching on blade not US style. Eric
    http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...lry-Model-1872
    http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...-Officer-Sabre
    http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...Officers-Sword
    I could not put the pommel together in my mind but just thought it looks like the US m1872 naval pommel while guard looks more like m1872 calvary.
    Last edited by Eric Fairbanks; 04-02-2017 at 10:17 AM.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  10. #10
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    Although the hilt does look like a deluxe version of a US M1860 cavalry officer sword, I do not believe it is an American eagle on the pommel. Rather, it is a typical Napoleonic eagle grasping a thunderbolt in its talons. I also think Mark Cain may be right in his suggestion that there was originally a crown above the eagle which has been removed. Based on this, I think it is very unlikely this is a sword made for the American market.

    Name:  Napoleonic Eagle 2 Comp.jpg
Views: 215
Size:  21.1 KBName:  Napoleonic Eagle 1 comp.jpg
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Size:  43.7 KB

    I don't know much about French swords and their poincons. If they indicate the blade was produced in 1895, obviously that was too late for the Second Empire. Perhaps a Second Empire hilt was remounted on a later blade, perhaps at the same time as the crown was removed? I can certainly understand why someone would want to update such a fancy premium sword (an old family sword?) for continued use under the Third Republic.

  11. #11
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    Good afternoon Gentlemen,

    Found the reference for this saber in Lhoste and Resek.
    It is a model 1817.
    Now, these models had "Fleur de lys" on the pommel.
    Same floral decor on the brass scabbard bands.
    The "amethyst" could be a tarnished brass insert meant to engrave initials.
    Sabers assembled by Duc with blades from Klingenthal, usually engraved with "Vive le Roy" or "Gendarmerie Royale".

    So, we could have a model "À la 1817", bought privately by an officer from a cutler, during the 2nd Empire and rebladed afterwards.
    I still can't find trace of the "E" poinçon....cutler mark ?

    And most important, I found no reference on such a beast in Pétard.

  12. #12
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    Dan, could the "E under a crown" at the base of the blade be a "B"? If so, what would a "B" indicate?
    http://s95.photobucket.com/user/Fire...03.25.jpg.html

  13. #13
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    It's definitely a crowned B. Here's your picture after being tweaked a bit in PhotoShop to improve the contrast.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #14
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    On the Klingenthal site, as of 1836, most of the poinçons are identified to a certain time frame but not linked to an inspector name; only three of them are.
    So, the only "B under a crown" started to be used in 1838 and remain unknown.

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