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Thread: Someone really really wanted it

  1. #1
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    Someone really really wanted it

    382229058508


    Wagers on how soon we see it listed again?




    I'm puzzled about what I might be missing.

    Cheers

    GC

  2. #2
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    Naval and many think the star is Confederate and others think it is Texas. I would say the naval connection carried it up. Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  3. #3
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    Too early for a rebel sword and sometimes a star is just a star. I have read the star being associated with Maine as well. Go figure.

    As usual, I just packed books for the weekend but there are a couple of stars in the Medicus collection.

    Cheers

    GC

  4. #4
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    Several years ago (or more) a British presentation sword was sold for $10,000. Claim was to a VC winner and his name etc. etched onto the blade. Marked as a Wilkinson.
    Problem was the sword was a real high end presentation piece but not a Wilkinson and the blade etching was modern.
    People want to believe in its value and they then refuse to see what is in front of them screaming NO !!

  5. #5
    I sincerely doubt that this sword saw service in the Texian Navy. When did the "screaming eagle" pommels first come out?

    The Texian Navy did not exist during the Civil War.

    The Texian Navy during the Republic of Texas period (1836 to 1845) did NOT have a standard sword and did NOT provide them.

    Officers and sailors in the Texian Navy carried whatever they could afford or acquire. Some carried USN swords as they were former USN officers. Some carried Mexican swords as they had previously served in the Mexican Navy prior to shifting over to Texian service. Others used swords already in possession of their families. Infantry swords, Artillery swords, Cavalry sabers. Swords taken from personnel on captured Mexican vessels were put into service.

    At it's largest, the TN only had 8 ships - a sloop-of-war, 3 brigs, 3 schooners and the first steamship of war in North America. None of these ships had a lot of people manning them.

    While it is POSSIBLE that an officer from a wealthy family could have bought the sword as a private purchase (some did), such a sword would NOT be in that condition. The Texian Navy didn't just sit in port doing nothing. They were engaging Mexican Navy ships, and harassing/boarding Mexican merchant ships during the short War of Independence (November 1835 to April 1836). They were carried while off ship as part of their EDC.

    And it would have had to have been purchased by a wealthy family member as the Republic of Texas government was so chronically broke that Navy personnel were often paid in promissory notes, which were then bought from said sailors at a steep discount by landlubbers.

    Historical aside - Note I use the term "Texian". That was the proper term for a citizen of the Lone Star Republic and Lone Star State until the mid 1850s, when some yankee journalist started using Texan and the rest of the eastern newspapers followed suit.

  6. #6
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    I really liked this sword and had it on my watch list. but $3k+?? Not really. I hope whenever I get ready to sell, i get two such "cost-is-no-issue" bidders going after my lots.

    I'm with Glen in thinking the star is just a decoration. Aside from the dating issue, there is no way a sword designed for sale to either a Confederate or Lone Star Republic officer would include a federal eagle on the blade.

  7. #7
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    I can't bring up the listing on EBay but the scabbard fitting appears too wide for the blade? Is it the highly decorated fitting that suggests higher value?

  8. #8
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    Omg

  9. #9
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    As I said in my previous post it went way up because it is an early naval sword. ("many think the star is Confederate and others think it is Texas." I have seen at least 4 in the last year claiming one or the other.The question gentleman was (why did it go so high?) not what is it? The lone star shows up now and again on federal period swords and is in my opinion is just that a star for the new republic of the USA. This sword must be before 1840 when needle etch was almost abandoned and most likely before 1835 so Texans at that time would have been Mexicans. They were called Texicans because they were Mexicans that lived in the Tejas region of Mexico. They became the more Americanized Texan when they joined the Union in 45. I would give this sword an 1825 to 1835 date and would be interested in others opinion. US Naval swords are hot right now and have been for some months on ebay and on other sites. I have bid on a number of them this year but have quickly been rooted out. The eagle head shell guards with the anchor are out of site. Eric

    Is that white etch in between? If so I would change to 1835 to 1840.
    Last edited by Eric Fairbanks; 09-21-2017 at 09:40 PM.
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  10. #10
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    I would say this sword was definitely tri-color with white-etch panels between the B&G. I have been trying for years to determine when this style was first introduced and have yet to reach a fully satisfactory answer. I suspect, mainly due to the style of some swords having such blades, it was earlier than the mid-30s, but I would hate to have to defend an earlier date with hard proof - I have none. Anyone know of any such swords with inscriptions or other firm provenance which could allow them to be dated with certitude?

    Eric, I have also noted a trend towards higher prices for Navy blades recently. Wonder why? Fortunately that didn't carry over to the nice Adam Spies example of the so-called Navy surgeon's sword I recently purchased on ebay. (These were essentially the same as RN P1805 swords.) My sword had a bird's head pommel and plainer knuckle guard and quillon, but had some similarity to the sword in this chain including a tri-color spadroon-like blade and anchor-marked langets. I had tentatively dated mine to about 1830, and would think this one would be about the same date.

    My Sword:

    Name:  Spies surgeon 1.JPG
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Size:  28.5 KBName:  Spies surgeon 2.jpg
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  11. #11
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    Eric, I have also noted a trend towards higher prices for Navy blades recently. Wonder why? Fortunately that didn't carry over to the nice Adam Spies example of the so-called Navy surgeon's sword I recently purchased on ebay. (These were essentially the same as RN P1805 swords.) My sword had a bird's head pommel and plainer knuckle guard and quillon, but had some similarity to the sword in this chain including a tri-color spadroon-like blade and anchor-marked langets. I had tentatively dated mine to about 1830, and would think this one would be about the same date.

    My Sword:

    Name:  Spies surgeon 1.JPG
Views: 204
Size:  28.5 KBName:  Spies surgeon 2.jpg
Views: 202
Size:  89.6 KB

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Mathieson View Post
    I can't bring up the listing on EBay but the scabbard fitting appears too wide for the blade? Is it the highly decorated fitting that suggests higher value?
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-War-.../382229058508?

  13. #13
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    I had three paragraphs just lost to the wacky connection (Cox is punishing me for my yelling at them). Sigh

    Anyway, I would think it a militia grade sword, maybe an inland or coastal thing. We do know the regulation eagle was coming in big time by the mid 1830s with much larger swords than the spadroons. With the indian head dress, we are looking at the Seminole Wars more than anything else. 1816-1842 is quite a spread but let us look at the grip, which says the '40s to me and the repaired hilt no earlier than the regulations set out in the '20s. Can we say the 1830s as an overlap as the big birds come in? Could be, which would narrow a federal naval interest to the early 1830s. A hunch though it might be a decade past that. Overall, one of the gaudy guys even Ames did (unless those hilts were English impostors signing stuff Ames. See Hamilton Ames).

    Overall just a bit frustrated over seeing it sell at that and well past my real interests. There is a "cheap" rat naval sword on the bay, much like the one Richard just posted. Ah well, I am more thinking maybe selling ten swords to afford a couple of Ames currently listed (not eagles).

    Still looking for an un-decorated Bolton sabre with a horn or dark wood grip. That is my white whale, as it were and truly close to the end of eagle quests (then to work? write? recover? lots of editing to do)

    Cheers

    GC

    A pimp of a sword and maybe just a late dress sword rather than a service wear sword. One reason I consider these "pretty" things late.
    Last edited by Glen C.; 09-22-2017 at 01:08 AM.

  14. #14
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    Nice sword Richard and something I do not have a bird pommel spadroon. I think Glen owns a plain one if I remember correctly, which would be my joy. I looked at the relic but it is British and out of my scope, perhaps it could be a consultation prize. There does not seem to be a lot of these bird head reverse P spadroons. I am not sure why they fascinate me. Richard I base my date for these double etch swords on Ames. Most of his early eagles have it, unstopped fuller or total white etch and they could be no earlier than 1834 and as Glen said the main sword influence at the time is the Second Seminole War that ended in 42. Not scientific but best wag I can come up with to date this style. Regards Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  15. #15
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    Don't know if this is the spadroon you are thinking of Eric. No naval attribution I can find in its faint etch. As it was never b&g, not "ancient".




    With no langets, it is a bit of a puzzle but that I have seen Horstmann marked examples like it and it has a German type epee tip, easily the 1830s, or that Horstmann was importing older stuff. It came off Ron Rubles old site at a dear price. One I had to have Not four figures though and a pleasant haggle. Pairs well with my Berger as that's just my own niggle of pairs. A spadroon for every sabre (or the other way around).

    Cheers

    GC

  16. #16
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    It is and I am not looking for naval attribution it is just the most common. Your plain sword truly the apple of my eye. Not a sword seen every day and just something about the bird head spadroon that would make a plain Jane a beautiful girlfriend. Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  17. #17
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    If one were to go by decoration comparison and style, the sword (also an eagle head) I have pictured here (if it will upload...always too big!), would place the sword in the 1820's. The pictured sword is rather rare as it has a presentation dated to November 25, 1823 (hence I say 1820's).

    I would post more pictures, if it were not so frustratingly difficult to reduce them!
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Simon R.; 09-22-2017 at 09:16 PM.

  18. #18
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    Simon,

    Thank you so much for posting the picture of your sword. It strongly supports the use of tri-color etch designs on blades well before the mid-1830s. I would like to see a full-length photo of the sword.

    The etched designs on your sword and the one at the top of this thread are remarkably similar. I suspect that they may be contemporary.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Schenk View Post
    Simon,

    Thank you so much for posting the picture of your sword. It strongly supports the use of tri-color etch designs on blades well before the mid-1830s. I would like to see a full-length photo of the sword.

    The etched designs on your sword and the one at the top of this thread are remarkably similar. I suspect that they may be contemporary.
    Thanks, Richard....I will post tomorrow.... when I figure out an easy way to reduce the picture size so they upload!

  20. #20
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    Most excellent, now we are getting somewhere. Nice sword. Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  21. #21
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    I will be out of it for a few days before I am unpacked but I spent some thine going through both Furr's and Tuite's books. So much time that I didn't have a chance to go through the Medicus book again. Horrors, I even forgot to look in the eagle old testament.

    Both Furr and Tuite have some choice words on some mixed panel examples. Tuite actually shows a Spies marked example. These references both have Indian iconography. My own hunches are still later than earlier for the object sword and the blade really the last of my thoughts in reviewing what the date might be. It is great to see a dated example and that alone a great evidence of how early such work began. I place the start of that earlier than the 1820s but hey what do I know anyway?

    A super busy weekend in display, visited twice by a flock of Yale Women's Pistol Team members with some great questions on old swords and knives. Oh to be be couple of generations younger

    Cheers

    GC

  22. #22
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    When you get caught up I for one would be very interested in your thoughts on dating both the double etch and plain white etch. It is an extremely interesting subject as is the different types and countries of needle etch but one of my worst subjects? Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  23. #23
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    Hi Eric

    My hunches and speculation are most often based on existing publications. It is in reviewing those (such as referenced in my last post) that I draw conclusions. I may be right or wrong but the process of etching goes back eons. B&G goes back a long long time. Mixed panels a trend that (no doubt in my mind) that surely began fairly early in the grand scheme of things. Nailing down a specific date of when federal period swords began to be embellished no different than finding the first mixed panel example and it has been pointed out to me (Robson?) that British swords appearing with white etch have appeared pre 1800. That it was done with any regularity is more the issue at hand here and Simon has provided a date. I have (in my last post) pointed to references that show the trend of mixed panels at least into the 1830s. My own "hunches" on the hilt itself point to the 1840s. I don't have anything else to offer unless someone cares to clarify the issue with more evidence. MY thoughts and time have been more to point to the latest date for this item rather than looking for when the etching trends began because it is a somewhat moot issue to me. The technology existed long before the federal period so expecting me to offer a definitive timeline for any of this is the kind of spinning my wheels I really try to avoid. When we go back to existing references time and again, there are always new clues to answer some of the questions. The eureka we often hope for are often right under our noses.


    Tell me why German ferrules are appearing on Ames marked swords in the 19th century (geez, I should pick up the book right?) but that has nothing to do with the sword that sold for four figures. The etch is the last thing in my mind (as mentioned) but maybe we need a dedicated discussion regarding them. Research (to me) is largely observation and looking at what is out there. It may be six months (or years) before I stumble on something that supports one premise or another. I'll keep my eyes and ears open

    Cheers

    GC

  24. #24
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    OK, just for a giggle or Ha look at the Mexican War period presentation sword to Morgan page 121 Hamilton's Ames.. Crappy picture and white etch only but check out the gaudiness of the hilt.


  25. #25
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    Sorry...just got around to loading these after some trial error...(the 1823 dated eagle). This sword is also picture in a color plate in the American Eagle Pommel Sword by Mowbray...you can see the whole sword there....this reducing pictures is driving me nuts!!!!
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Last edited by Simon R.; 09-26-2017 at 10:08 PM.

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