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Thread: a Winner-Nippes Artillery Saber??

  1. #1
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    a Winner-Nippes Artillery Saber??

    I just purchased what appears to be a mounted artillery saber from the War of 1812 period or possibly earlier. I would like to nail down the details on when and where it was made and by whom.

    Name:  Possible Nippes 8 comp.jpg
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    My initial assessment is that the hilt seems to share many similarities to the M1810 militia cavalry sabers produced by Winner/Nippes/Henkel and some other Philadelphia cutlers who probably used hilts produced by Winner and his successors. Although the knuckle bow has only a slight reverse-P shape compared to the full reverse-P on the cavalry sabers, it has the same backstrap terminating in a bird’s-head pommel with Winner’s signature slot cut in the face to accommodate the end of the knuckle bow, and the same flat disk quillon. The grip is a similar 7-lobbed leather-covered wood affair with a plain flat band ferrule at its base. It does not, however have a wire wrap like the cavalry sabers and does not appear to have ever had any.

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    Another difference between this sword and the M1810 cavalry sabers is that they were mounted with flat blades with a single deep narrow fuller along the top of the blade, while this sword has a Montmorency style blade. Winner, however, used a similar Montmorency type blade on his 2nd Model Virginia Manufactory cavalry saber.

    Name:  Possible Nippes 3 comp.jpg
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    Based on these factors, my tentative conclusion is that this is a militia mounted artillery saber made in Philadelphia by Winner or his successors Nippes or Henkel in the 1808 – 1814 timeframe. Does anyone have any alternative thoughts?

  2. #2
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    My initial thoughts on this saber was a Rose product as Rose was known to use Montmorency blades and the grip has a large swell like Rose, however; on more reflection the narrow flat ferrule, distinct turn down of the back strap to pommel, 7 lobe grip and stirrup hilt all make me think of Winner. A beautiful and rare early American brass hilt artillery saber none the less, who ever made it. I get the willies just looking at it. Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  3. #3
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    Browsing the bay and saw a similar guard and overall but without the balled grip.

    For some reason my mind was jogged to an old link to 1812 US Marines uniform regulations that went on to include a plea from one commander that brass was getting difficult to obtain. The site is still up but I can't find the letter.
    http://www.1812marines.org/the-war-o...rine/uniforms/

    The sword you show is mounted use length it looks but it gets me wondering about some of your own research on Marine ncos.

    The ebay sword has the same type of pommel and guard fixture and the same shallow p/stirrup guard.

    Anyway, a random Sunday link.

    Cheers

    GC

  4. #4
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    Ah, here is the page. It was a quartermaster re brass.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20041229...g/uniforms.htm

    "Sergeants received heavy bladed, brass-hilted curved swords with brass 'D' guards and fluted wooden grips29 as well as two large yellow epaulets, referred to by their 18th century name: "knots" or "shoulder knots."30 No reference was found to specific Corporal's knots or to any other specific enlisted Marine insignia other than uniform cap (shako) plates (often referred to as "eagles"), Marine issue brass buttons, and the brass eagle-and-anchor bayonet belt plates. Medals were not issued to or worn by Enlisted U.S. Marines in 1812."


    "On October 13, 1813, Quartermaster Bacon wrote to Lieutenant Gale in Philadelphia asking:

    Is there any sheet Brass to be had in Phila either new in sheets; or wrought in to kelttes [kettles], new or old. If so please inform me & also of what price. We need it much for sword and scabbard mounting. 42"

    Kind of tangentially related but I'm posting it up while I remember. that is a page from a decade or so ago while I really began my eagle quests. From that last quote, does it make one think maybe some swords were being assembled from blades procured from smiths, then finished by armourers?

    Cheers

    GC

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen C. View Post
    Browsing the bay and saw a similar guard and overall but without the balled grip.

    For some reason my mind was jogged to an old link to 1812 US Marines uniform regulations that went on to include a plea from one commander that brass was getting difficult to obtain. The site is still up but I can't find the letter.
    http://www.1812marines.org/the-war-o...rine/uniforms/

    The sword you show is mounted use length it looks but it gets me wondering about some of your own research on Marine ncos.

    The ebay sword has the same type of pommel and guard fixture and the same shallow p/stirrup guard.
    Anyway, a random Sunday link.

    Cheers

    GC
    Is this the sword to which you refer? I'm not sure what it is. Assuming it is American, it probably is a militia artillery saber, but probably later than mine shown at the top of this thread. I would guess it would be the 1820s or '30s, but Eric could probably give us a more informed estimate.

    Name:  Militia Artillery Oct 17 1 comp.jpg
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    I would love to link my sword to the Marines. Sergeants did, as you note, carry heavy brass mounted swords with curved blades. My sword is at a length, about 30", that it could have been used by foot troops. (I've been rethinking my use of "mounted" in my tentative identification.) However it does not have a D-guard as described, and I really can find nothing specific about my sword which would suggest Marine use. To bad ... it would be great to be able to make that claim when it finally comes time to sell.

  6. #6
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    Now that is an interesting sword, boy I'd like to smell that for an afternoon with lighting and a magnifying glass. Winner slot in pommel, minimal belly in P, Starrish grip, soldered langets and a Solingen German ferrule. Do you have more info on it Richard? Is it yours? The thiness of the pommel screams American design as does the slot but it has a Solingen ferrule and look about it. The blade I can't make up my mind about. I'm hooked tell me more tell me more. Eric
    The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." --- Tench Coxe

  7. #7
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    Don't tell the grownups. Posting purely for educational purposes.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Civil-War-M.../362133928551?

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