Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: $ 20,000 ?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    850

    $ 20,000 ?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=13960

    Is it just me, or is this a pretty decent late 19th century Chinese Navy sword that someone has stamped with a bogus C & T stamp?

    The letters sure look modern, and the stamping is awfully sloppy- nor is it worn and patinaed, as the rest of the blade.

    Plus, isnt it Tennant? And maybe Courtenay?

    But it got 19,000 in bids!

    Not to throw off on the seller- he's clearly knowledgeable about lots of things, and I don't see intentional fraud.

    But what do y'all think about the sword. Chinese navy, right? And when did they start using this pattern?
    Last edited by hc bright; 05-27-2003 at 10:54 AM.
    hc3

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Madrid, Spain
    Posts
    1,444

    Re: $ 20,000 ?

    Originally posted by hc bright
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=13960

    Is it just me, or is this a pretty decent late 19th century Chinese Navy sword that someone has stamped with a bogus C & T stamp?

    The letters sure look modern, and the stamping is awfully sloppy- nor is it worn and patinaed, as the rest of the blade.

    Plus, isnt it Tennant? And maybe Courtenay?

    But it got 19,000 in bids!

    Some people are given away by their own greed... He had at hand $19,000 for virtually nothing, and he let it go! Unbelievable...

    BTW, eBay fraud is reaching its peak...
    SI, SI
    NO, NON

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Mississippi, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,862

    Re: $ 20,000 ?

    Originally posted by hc bright
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=13960

    Is it just me, or is this a pretty decent late 19th century Chinese Navy sword that someone has stamped with a bogus C & T stamp?

    The letters sure look modern, and the stamping is awfully sloppy- nor is it worn and patinaed, as the rest of the blade.

    Plus, isnt it Tennant? And maybe Courtenay?

    But it got 19,000 in bids!

    Not to throw off on the seller- he's clearly knowledgeable about lots of things, and I don't see intentional fraud.

    But what do y'all think about the sword. Chinese navy, right? And when did they start using this pattern?

    This sword resembles the Confederate pattern naval officer's sword. However, my understanding is that retailer is "Courtney & Tennant" of Charleston, S.C., not "Tennent." I am looking at Albaugh's Photographic Supplement of Confederate Swords and there is a sword seemingly identical to the one for sale on ebay (both stamped "Mole") with the exception, of course, of the misspelled "Tennant." Albaugh describes Courtney and Tennant as a naval outfitter and importer of weapons. Confederate naval swords are pretty rare items -- much to rare to risk a high dollar ebay purchase.

    Andre
    Last edited by A.Ducote; 05-27-2003 at 12:17 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    850

    Re: Re: $ 20,000 ?

    yes, but does Albaugh show the same Chinese "sea dragon" pommel? And is the Albaugh sword without any Confederate initials, motifs, etc.?
    hc3

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Mississippi, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,862

    Re: Re: Re: $ 20,000 ?

    Originally posted by hc bright
    yes, but does Albaugh show the same Chinese "sea dragon" pommel? And is the Albaugh sword without any Confederate initials, motifs, etc.?
    I done some further looking and I don't know if this isn't an original Confederate weapon.

    The photo of the sword is from a distance, but the pommel looks to be the same. Also, in Albaugh's Confederate Arms, he describes the guard to have the Confederate naval coat-of-arms (crossed cannon & fouled anchor), cotton and tobacco plants. Blade finely etched with the same motifs with the stars and bars flag. Again, he spells the name as "Tennant" and refers also to the firm as an importer of buttons. However, another reference provides the spelling as "Courtney & Tennent" as a retailer of naval buttons. The plot thickens . . . . .

    In summation --- I think that this is either an original Confederate naval sword or a copy of an original Confederate sword. Still to risky to me to purchase this item over ebay.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts
    160
    In American Swords from the Collection of Philip Medicus, Plate 8 shows the Confederate Regulation Naval Officer's Sword. The maker is described as "Courtney & Tennent", Charleston, S.C. The Medicus description also refers to the sharkskin grip being wrapped with three strands of untwisted wire. The ebay example has the same retailer name and appears to show three strands of untwisted wire. The Pommel features compare well but the Medicus example does not show the three lines running across the ricasso next to the fuller and the etching on the blade appears to be different.

    I am not sure of what variations exist regarding the engraving on the blade. However, unless the are issues concerning the Medicus collection, the Medicus example appears to address the spelling issue.

    It would be interesting to see the provenance.

    Michael

  7. #7
    Originally posted by M. Tweel
    In American Swords from the Collection of Philip Medicus, Plate 8 shows the Confederate Regulation Naval Officer's Sword. The maker is described as "Courtney & Tennent", Charleston, S.C. The Medicus description also refers to the sharkskin grip being wrapped with three strands of untwisted wire. The ebay example has the same retailer name and appears to show three strands of untwisted wire. The Pommel features compare well but the Medicus example does not show the three lines running across the ricasso next to the fuller and the etching on the blade appears to be different.

    I am not sure of what variations exist regarding the engraving on the blade. However, unless the are issues concerning the Medicus collection, the Medicus example appears to address the spelling issue.

    It would be interesting to see the provenance.

    Michael
    While I cannot comment on the authenticity of the sword as a Confederate weapon the blade does look like a good Mole. The proofmark is listed by Annis & May as Robert Mole & Son, Birmingham, 1866-69. Whether that reflects on the date of the sword in question I don't know. I have that same proofmark on a Scottish broadsword which does not have a maker's name on the blade but which has the earmarks of a Mole sword.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Mississippi, U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,862
    Originally posted by M. Tweel
    In American Swords from the Collection of Philip Medicus, Plate 8 shows the Confederate Regulation Naval Officer's Sword. The maker is described as "Courtney & Tennent", Charleston, S.C. The Medicus description also refers to the sharkskin grip being wrapped with three strands of untwisted wire. The ebay example has the same retailer name and appears to show three strands of untwisted wire. The Pommel features compare well but the Medicus example does not show the three lines running across the ricasso next to the fuller and the etching on the blade appears to be different.

    I am not sure of what variations exist regarding the engraving on the blade. However, unless the are issues concerning the Medicus collection, the Medicus example appears to address the spelling issue.

    It would be interesting to see the provenance.

    Michael

    In the past I dabbled in Confederate swords and viewed several first hand, although I've never owned any myself. Typically, I would say that the etching patterns would vary depending upon the owner, maker or retailer. A variety of European officer's swords were imported by the US/CS before and during the war and etched (or caused to be etched) in North America. Such practice I would think would lead to a variety of different patterns on blades. Since we are dealing with a fairly untypical sword of which a relative few would have been sold (as compared to an infantry, cavalry or artillery officer's sword) and being sold by the same retailer, I guess it whether or not the pattern is different would depend upon whether or not Courtney & Tennent had an in house engraver or contracted out for engraving. If so, did the firm have more than one contract engraver? Also, were the swords engraved upon receipt by Courtney & Tennent and then offered for sale, or was the engraving special ordered? Unfortunately, my sources are silent on the issue.

    I agree that it would be interesting to hear the seller's provenance. Regardless, Confederate Naval officer's swords are not commonly encountered and Confederate swords fetch premium prices in the US. If its original, the seller may get his $20,000.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •