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Thread: Shinkendo? or Kendo?

  1. #1

    Shinkendo? or Kendo?

    I want to learn to use this ole katana. Which diciplines are available and use japanese swords?

    And are Shinkendo and Kendo the same thing?

  2. #2
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    Re: Shinkendo? or Kendo?

    Originally posted by L. Wexler
    I want to learn to use this ole katana. Which diciplines are available and use japanese swords?

    And are Shinkendo and Kendo the same thing?
    ...well shinkendo would litterally mean "to the death" since you would be using live blades (shinken). Kendo is the "way of the sword" and use bamboo swords (i can't spell the name of them ).
    I'm lost---- I've gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait.

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    Hi all, I believe the question is asking about SHINKENDO which is actually meant to be translated as "True way of the sword" a system created by Master Toshishiro Obata. Or kendo, the sport.
    Luke LaFontaine. Fight Choreographer / Stunt Coordinator

  4. #4
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    Originally posted by luke laFontaine
    Or kendo, the sport.
    That old debate eh? Sport Vs Martial Way....

  5. #5
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    hmm, somewhat akin to the debate between judo and traditional karate....

    Ok, i can't resist, i've done both judo and karate, and i like karate better! (might have been my judo instructor though, or just the class)
    Don't knock on Death's door...Ring the door bell and run, she hates that!

    Chlanna nan con thigibh a so's gheibh sibh feoil!
    (Sons of the hounds, come here and get flesh!).:Clan cameron war cry

    "No human alive is powerful enough to own anything. we are but borrowers. Swords are eternal, humans are temporary. We simply watch over them for a short while..."-David Stokes

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  6. #6

    Re: Shinkendo? or Kendo?

    Originally posted by L. Wexler
    I want to learn to use this ole katana. Which diciplines are available and use japanese swords?

    And are Shinkendo and Kendo the same thing?
    Kendo doesn't use katana at all, we use shinai and bokken. Kendo has a heavy focus on sparring with armour and shinai.

    Shinkendo usually refers a modern martial art created by Obata Toshishiro which combines elements of modern kendo with Toyama-ryu iaido and also some test cutting. You should easily be able to find their website with a google for shinkendo.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  7. #7
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    Unhappy Misinformation! ...

    Greetings Gentlemen,
    If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk!
    Someone asked questions regarding two entirely separate sword arts, and what he got was a bunch of sarcasm and misinformation! Pretty sad folks!

    Mr. Wexler,
    Mr. Gendzwill gave you a very brief description of kendo. You can get much more information about it by doing a quick google search of kendo and reading some of the information put forth on a few of the many sites out there.

    Shinkendo has very little in common with kendo except the name. In Japanese, kendo translates to "way of the sword". Shinkendo is a Japanese Sword Art created by Toshishiro Obata from his experiences in various sword arts, the main one being Toyama Ryu. The word shinkendo translates as "true way of the sword". You can get alot of information about Shinkendo by reading their web site at www.shinkendo.com

    As for learning the proper use of a Japanese Sword, if you'll tell us where you are located, it is possible that someone knows of a school in your area. Kendo is much more widely spread than iaido or batto. In the US, legitimate sword schools are still few and far between, and many practitioners have to travel quite a distance to obtain proper instruction.

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Keep the sharp side and the
    pointy end between you and
    your opponent"

  8. #8
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    Unhappy Agreed 100%, Paul

    Besides arts such as Kendo and Shinkendo, there are a few legitimate schools of Kenjutsu, Iaido/jutsu, other sword styles and some koryu arts that include swordwork in their curriculum. Legitimate sword instruction is not very common, but it can be found if you are willing to make the effort.

    http://www.koryu.com gives a good overview of what is available in the US, if that is where you are located.

    As Paul says, don't be shy, tell us where you are (city and state)and we can probably refer you to a decent instructor or two.
    In Sangha,
    Diane Mirro
    SFI Moderator

    "In wildness is the preservation of the world."--Thoreau

  9. #9

    Re: Shinkendo? or Kendo?

    im in houston texas

    and now im more confused after looking at the koryu.com site

    are shinkendo and kenjutsu completely different or is one a subset of the other?

  10. #10
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    Talking More info ...

    Mr. Wexler,
    I suggest that you begin reading up on the sword arts in general. The past threads of this forum are an excellent thing to peruse to pick up miscellaneous information.

    That being said, kenjutsu means "art of the sword" and is a generic term for techniques with the sword already drawn and in hand. Iaijutsu, and battojutsu (along with their interchangeable alternatives iaido and battodo) are generic terms for techniques with the sword starting in the scabbard. In general usage, those schools that have battodo or battojutsu usually are done standing and involve tameshigiri (test cutting with a live blade). Those schools that have iaido or iaijutsu generally start from a kneeling position (seiza). Of course, as with anything Japanese, that is not definitive. I can think of exceptions to both of those rules off of the top of my head. Thus, the sword art Shinkendo could be classified as battojutsu and kenjutsu. Kendo by itself almost always refers to the Japanese equivalent of fencing which is performed with armor and bamboo swords.

    So, out in the Houston area you have no Shinkendo. You do have a kendo club, a very good iaido dojo led by Emily Egan out in Clear Lake. I think (but would have to check and make sure) that Shin Shin Sekiguchi ryu battojutsu can be learned in Pearland.

    Trust me, spend a bit of time reading through whatever you can find and it will become a little clearer.

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Keep the sharp side and the
    pointy end between you and
    your opponent"

  11. #11
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    Thumbs up I can vouch for Emily and MJER in Texas...

    ...having just experienced a fantastic weekend in Denton with my good friend Emily, five of my students, and about 30 others from Denton, New Orleans and other farflung environs, all partaking of the knowledge of several of the North American MJER instructors.

    Emily's website is http://www.clear-lake-iaido.com and that of her instructor John Ray (and everyone's senior in rank in MJER in North America) is http://www.dentondojo.com for information about Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido, one of the koryu with a presence here in North America. FWIW, my study group's website is http://www.RiverCityIaido.com and we offer MJER Iaido, ZNKR Iaido and Kendo training in San Antonio.

    Yes, I wax enthusiastic about MJER. No, it is not the only stuff out there. I recommend that you go watch a few classes in the different styles, talk to the instructors and students, and try to figure out what grabs you by the throat. Practicing swordwork is not easy, so you might as well practice a style you can be passionate about.
    In Sangha,
    Diane Mirro
    SFI Moderator

    "In wildness is the preservation of the world."--Thoreau

  12. #12
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    You can also go to the international shinkendo website and click on dojo finders. The dojos that teach shinkendo all over America and the world will be listed with contact numbers and emails.

    Being a shinkendoka myself, I had the honor of studying under Obata sensei myself when I resided in California. Shinkendo is a fusion of all of Obata sensei's experience. You should visit the Honbu in Little Tokyo to get a better picture of everything. Take care.

    Marina

  13. #13

    Mugai Ryu IaiHyodo

    There is an official study group for Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo in Nacogdoches, Tx. That's just outside Houston.
    It is run by Jimmy Crow. He is looking for new members as this group is just starting out.
    He can be reached via jimmycrow@mac.com

    Mugai ryu Iaihyodo is Edo period koryu iaijutsu and was founded in 1648 by Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi.

    I hope this helps.

    Big Tony
    Senpokan Dojo
    Bugei Trading Co.
    BIG TONY
    Senpokan Dojo

  14. #14
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    Re: Misinformation! ...

    Originally posted by Paul Smith
    Greetings Gentlemen,
    If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk!
    Someone asked questions regarding two entirely separate sword arts, and what he got was a bunch of sarcasm and misinformation! Pretty sad folks!
    So this is not a public forum?
    People cannot comment and cannot offer the information they know.. right or wrong?

    If this is the case then I want a moderator to delete my account and I shall never return to this site.

  15. #15
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    Lightbulb

    Yeah, Paul!! What the heck is the matter with you!!


    Next thing you know you will actually expect people to double check their sources, or maybe give citations, or suggest possible resources!!!

    THEN where would we be?!?

    No more spouting from the lip! No more endless passing of fractured oral traditions and heresay!?! What the hell fun is THAT! Gees, imagine a world where we have no more subjective and endless debates about what art is the best or could Mifune beat-up Bruce Lee! Just one string after another of accurate productive information being exchanged. Could things get any more dull!?! I tell you, Paul sometimes I really wonder where your head is at.



    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    Midwest Hapkido, Inc.

  16. #16
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    Re: Re: Misinformation! ...

    Originally posted by Paulo Walsh
    So this is not a public forum?
    People cannot comment and cannot offer the information they know.. right or wrong?

    If this is the case then I want a moderator to delete my account and I shall never return to this site.
    If you are not happy here, you are welcome to simply never return to the site...
    In Sangha,
    Diane Mirro
    SFI Moderator

    "In wildness is the preservation of the world."--Thoreau

  17. #17
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    Talking Distances in Texas

    Originally posted by T. Alvarez
    There is an official study group for Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo in Nacogdoches, Tx. That's just outside Houston.

    Big Tony
    Senpokan Dojo
    Bugei Trading Co.
    Ya gotta love Big Tony. Nacadoches is well over 100 miles north of Houston--Just a hop, skip and a jump for someone like Tony in a state like Texas...

    Of course, it IS a minor distance compared to the hundreds and even thousands of miles SOME of us travel most willingly for instruction...
    In Sangha,
    Diane Mirro
    SFI Moderator

    "In wildness is the preservation of the world."--Thoreau

  18. #18
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    Re: Re: Re: Misinformation! ...

    Originally posted by Diane Mirro
    If you are not happy here, you are welcome to simply never return to the site...
    Many thanks for the kind offer, please see the private message regarding the deletion of my profile.

  19. #19
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    OK, Step out side!!!

    Dear Tony:

    "........Mugai ryu Iaihyodo is Edo period koryu iaijutsu and was founded in 1648 by Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi. ...."

    I can't tell where the inaccuracy is coming in, or maybe I'm reading way too much into Darrell Craigs' book. His chapter on Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi certainly identifies this gentleman as the originator of the style. Then (pg 19) the author goes on to identify two brothers Yasuke and Hidezou Takahashi who factored in their background in Jikyou-Ryu after Sukemochis' death in 1727. From what I can read in this particular resource nobody later changed the style back. I know this must seem like picking nits, but my money would be on the Takehashi brothers as the originators of what is practiced today. Otherwise, somebody could likewise make a case for Aikido actually being originated by Takeda instead of Ueyshiba. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    Midwest Hapkido, Inc.

  20. #20
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    Hey Tony,
    I didn't know that they had formed an official study group. That's cool, I'll have to add them to my list of Texas sword folks!

    Hey Bruce,
    I think you need to start a new thread on that subject. You could probably get some pretty definitive answers on it from Renfield Kuroda.

    Thanks Diane!
    It's nice to know someone is keeping an eye on the signal to noise ratio!

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Keep the sharp side and the
    pointy end between you and
    your opponent"

  21. #21
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    Lightbulb

    Dear Paul:

    "......Hey Bruce,
    I think you need to start a new thread on that subject. You could probably get some pretty definitive answers on it from Renfield Kuroda....."

    Thanks. Will do.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    Midwest Hapkido, Inc.

  22. #22
    Bruce,
    From the lineage chart that has been handed down to me by Niina Gosoke the 16th Soke of our line of Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo the ryuso or founder is Tsuji Gettan. The Takahashi's came after that. Regardless of what is being practiced today. The ryuso would still be Tsuji Gettan. The Takahashi's were soke's at certain times within the art.
    As for Mr. Craigs books. There is some debate regarding the content that he uses for Mugai Ryu. Regardless, it is not a debate or discussion that I care to get into. It has been discussed before.

    Paul,
    i second your comment above by the way. This is the main reason why I stay off the forums. That and the cartoon kooks!

    Anyway, yes there is an official study group in Nacogdoches under Jimmy Crow. I was persistant with him in setting it up within our study groups in the U.S..
    It was also approved for him to do so by his current teacher in MJER. I was adament that he have permission from his current teacher before moving ahead with us.

    Diane,
    i thought 100 miles was considered close out there in red neck land!
    You are right in the fact that it is much closer than japan is for those of us that have to go there to train several times a year.
    How's the yoroidoshi that you picked up at the San Antonio show?
    When I come back out this year. I will have to show you how to use it.



    I hope this helps.


    Big Tony
    Senpokan Dojo
    Bugei Trading Co.
    BIG TONY
    Senpokan Dojo

  23. #23
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    Question Shinkendo training

    This thread seems kind of touchy, so I'll try to be clear in my question. What is the pecentage of training use between bokuto and live cutting?
    Last edited by luke laFontaine; 11-06-2003 at 11:32 AM.
    Luke LaFontaine. Fight Choreographer / Stunt Coordinator

  24. #24
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    I would also like to second the recommendation for Emily Egan and the Clearlake Iaido dojo, on the south side of Houston.

    I was fortunate enough to see her and one of her students at the US Iaido Embukai held this past weekend in Denton, Tx. She had some great photos to share of her recent trip to Japan.

    I would suggest checking out the links in Dianes note and contacting Emily directly for more info.
    Charles Mahan
    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits
    and building new ones.

  25. #25
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    Sword arts in Houston

    Dear L. Wexler,

    I reside in Houston also and found the following schools in my research:

    Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido- Ms. Emily Egan. You can reach her through the URL that Dr. Mirro posted in her reply to you. Ms. Egan is extremely gracious and will share any information she has on her art .

    Mugai ryu as taught by Mr. Darrell Craig. He is listed in the phone book under Houston Budokan.

    Muso Shinden- taught by Mr. C. Hocker. Mr. Hocker is the chief instuctor for Ki-Aikido in the Houston Area. A great Aikidoka and sword instructor. He is in the phone book or can be reached at his web site: http://www.houstonkiaikido.org/

    Shin Shin Sekiguchi Ryu / Toyama-Ryu - taught by Dr. J. McGlade in Pearland Texas. This is the school I currently train with. The instruction is outstanding and I enjoy it very much. The group is small which gives you a lot of hands on instruction and good comaraderie.

    As Dr. Mirro and Mr. Smith, stated you need to research and possibly visit all four schools to make your decsion. Taking up the sword is a serious endeavor and is not to be taken lightly or at a whim. The price of equipment and amount of time spent is enough to make you realize that it can be costly. Lastly as stated by others, you have to make your own mine up with what suits your purpose and reason. For me, coming from an Aikido background, I chose the battodo of Toyama Ryu. For yourself, you may like the competition of kendo.

    If you are interested in the school , I currently train at , please feel free to contact me off line in a private email and I will arrange for introductions. Hope this helps

    Best regards,

    Jim Riviera

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