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Thread: Cheesy Marketing Gimics in the Knife/Sword world.

  1. #26
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    In the interest of honesty and shameless self-promotion....

    With regard to my flex test- the actual major arc (the area being stressed) is actually a lot more than an inch- it is about the width of my hand and thumb- about five inches. I actually started this practice when I first started making swords and have continued it since. When I do the full 'dog and pony' show at events it includes flexing, cutting, showing where the nodes are located and even some about how the sword is used- but that's at Camlann Medieval Faire, and the point is less to sell the sword than it is to impart information about swords generally (I didn't sell a single sword last year at this fair.) I also announce this as 'stupid sword-makers tricks.'

    The Viking sword that Gus mentioned was used for an entire 'season' (May to November) for demonstration purposes and was not for sale. It experienced a minimum of 300 flexes at 45-90 degrees before taking at set (naturally when I was showing it to another maker...) and was straightened and sold to a customer who just HAD to have it, at a reduced price with full disclosure of the abuse the sword had already suffered
    Tinkerswords.com Fine knives, swords and daggers in the style of the European Middle Ages and Viking Era

    "Then, one night as my car was going backwards through a cornfield an ninety miles per hour, I had an epiphany..."

    Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

  2. #27
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    This is a good read. It makes me feel better about asking "too many questions."


    I also realized immediately that the arc area would have to be under Tink's "hand." Although an impressive man he may be I was quite sure a hand alone could not pin a blade under stress like that to an inch... of... arc. Unless it were a thin blade, like a foil. Even then, flesh gives.

    A vice would do it. I'm not saying I'm unimpressed though. I'm not saying that at all. Just a grain of salt here and there, as per the 'educated customer'.


    Uh, but having said all that, sometimes a 'customer' talks too much and inadvertently propagates (why the big words?) all this marketing hype by repeating it, thinking it's truth...
    Sometimes you have to be careful who you listen to -- or sometimes if you're the one talking, just shut up and read up some more... just kidding.
    Was it beauty?... No. I think t'was Hex killed the beast...
    ( current sword on order -- AT 1434 )

  3. #28
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    Hey, howcome I'm the last poster? Aw c'mon...


    We need somebody to end with a flourish... A dismount from a trapeze and then a nice flourish...

    We need a satisfying, feel-good ending.
    Was it beauty?... No. I think t'was Hex killed the beast...
    ( current sword on order -- AT 1434 )

  4. #29
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    Originally posted by MannyG

    We need a satisfying, feel-good ending.
    .....and we all lived happily ever after knowing that cheesy market gimmicks would never haunt our dreams again……THE END.











    ………………………or is it?!?.
    I'm lost---- I've gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait.

    If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

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  5. #30
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    Well, I do not care much WHAT is said about swords but a lot WHO says it.
    This is my quintessence.
    Please ignore my orthography.

  6. #31
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    Cheers for the post, Its armed me with some new questions! Take this sword seller man!!!

  7. #32
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    So you're saying that my future swords and my current knives should be able to bend 45 degrees and return to normal if they are good huh? HMMMM I think I understand now just how suckered I've been...
    Life moves in Waves... you're at the top one day, at the bottem to next... so when people ask how you doing, pick a spot in between

  8. #33
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    Originally posted by Joshua Loke
    So you're saying that my future swords and my current knives should be able to bend 45 degrees and return to normal if they are good huh? HMMMM I think I understand now just how suckered I've been...
    Don't take me out of context here Not all swords do this- Katanas being a notable historical exception. This is just the standard that I have adopted for European style swords, and I think that for nearly any Eurosword this is a reasonable gauge of suitability for use. The only knives that I routinely apply this standard to are certain kitchen knives that require a flexible blade.
    Tinkerswords.com Fine knives, swords and daggers in the style of the European Middle Ages and Viking Era

    "Then, one night as my car was going backwards through a cornfield an ninety miles per hour, I had an epiphany..."

    Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

  9. #34
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    Originally posted by Joshua Loke
    So you're saying that my future swords and my current knives should be able to bend 45 degrees and return to normal if they are good huh? HMMMM I think I understand now just how suckered I've been...
    Well, if you have any "stainless steel" knives, then they don't really count for this type of test (it doesn't mean its a bad knife though). For steel to be flexable it has to be well tempered, and stainless steel (for the most part) doesn't get that extra attention.


    ...don't bother with stainless steel swords unless you like them and they make you wall look good.
    I'm lost---- I've gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait.

    If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

    I work for Keyser Söze.

  10. #35
    Originally posted by Michael Tinker Pearce
    This is just the standard that I have adopted for European style swords, and I think that for nearly any Eurosword this is a reasonable gauge of suitability for use.
    Having followed Tinker over the years, I'd say he is continuing to set an extremely high standard for himself (and, of course, treat it modestly as something that does not distinguish him at all).

    BTW "But at the recent NW rapier invitational several people were able to slice through full mats with a sharpened rapier- technique is most often the deciding factor here." -- I need to learn some rapier technique!

    Then, get my wife to quit buying furniture and finally buy a Tinker rapier <g> ...
    Regards,

    Stephen
    http://adrr.com/sword/

  11. #36
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    An excellent example of why I'm now reading these forums. I've purchased several of Angus Trims' blades and have always been pleased with their quality of materials, design and craftsmanship. Having his posts on this subject helped me lend credence to this forum and all those included in his statements.
    Thank you Mr. Pearce for shedding light on misconceptions driven by ignorance or greed.
    A Man of Great Strength, Driven by Pure Desire, Unwilling to Compromise, Never Accepting Defeat... is called a Hero.

    "For He is God's Minister to You for Good. But if You do Evil, Be Afraid; For He Does Not Bear the Sword in Vain; For He is God's Minister, An Avenger to Execute Wrath on Him Who Practices Evil."
    Romans 13.4

  12. #37
    Im new to this forum but i have been studying sword for a long time, and just recently started collecting them.I agree with you there are a lot of gimmiks out there you have to be alert.

    Good job.
    Use your enemies might against him.

  13. #38
    The thing that always gets me is "rat tail tang". I can honestly say I've seem somebody proudly say "Battle ready with a rat tail tang", as though a rat tail is something to be proud of.

    "Functional" is another word to watch out for. Lots of sword vendors use it to denote that the blade is sharp, regardless of whether it would actually manage to survive hitting something.

    I'd LOVE to be able to just educate the people selling the things - I sometimes think that half the problem is sword vendors just not knowing enough about their own product.

    Best to all,

    Robert Marks, still around
    Robert Marks
    Darksword Armory, Inc.
    www.darksword-armory.com

    "I'm not asking you to trade food for swords all the time, just food for THESE swords."

    "Sir, if we accepted your swords, then we'd have to accept EVERYBODY's swords..."
    - Home Movies

  14. #39
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    Question

    What this art really needs is what all other trades have developed over the years: a standards committee. In the case of commerical swords, a handful of sword enthusiasts could form a non-profit corporation, do some homework, and establish a few simple, scientifically repeatable tests to determine a sword's "battle-readiness" (actually an alternative term would have to be chosen for copyright purposes).

    I'm pretty sure that sword merchants would fall over themselves trying to get the coveted "battle-worthy" certification from the American Sword Standards Organization (or whatever).

    Bad idea?
    <><><> <><><> <><><>
    Do what thy manhood bids thee do,
    from none but self expect applause;
    He noblest lives and noblest dies
    who makes and keeps his self-made laws.

    -Sir Richard Francis Burton

  15. #40
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    Originally posted by Douglas S


    I'm pretty sure that sword merchants would fall over themselves trying to get the coveted "battle-worthy" certification from the American Sword Standards Organization (or whatever).

    Bad idea?
    I will be a bad idea when considering the "average" consumer. A good sword following the rules and guidelines you listed would cost a lot more than most people are willing to pay.

    Someone who has little knowledge of sword would argue why a piece of steel would be so expensive.

    Then they would argue the "do's and don'ts" of sword use (Hollywood style fighting) when told limitations of a real sword.

    Last they would refuse (or wouldn't care) to listen about proper sword care and storage. Also have considering the liabiliaty issues in the home.

    Now we all know better, but someone buying a cheap sword for his son doesn't want something that will rust or bends too much to me real. Besides if we did regulate standards for everything, then China would be out of buisness and cheap import cars would be buried a sea.
    I'm lost---- I've gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait.

    If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

    I work for Keyser Söze.

  16. #41
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    Originally posted by Kris Hampel
    you should stick a copy of this up in the beginners forum, I almost bought three swords before i knew anything about them, because i was convinced this sort of crap your are talking about was true, thank god my research took me a bit further.
    In my case, I'm glad I called Jim Hrisoulas. I had no idea of who he was, but after talking to him and reading his books I had a much better understanding of what I wanted.
    Cheers,

    Joe Gonzalez

  17. #42
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    Originally posted by D. Opheim
    Now we all know better, but someone buying a cheap sword for his son doesn't want something that will rust or bends too much to me real. Besides if we did regulate standards for everything, then China would be out of buisness and cheap import cars would be buried a sea.
    Not thinking of regulation at all. Heavens forfend!

    I know that many sellers claim that their swords are "battle ready" like a medicine might claim to be the cure for this and that. The idea was to have an impartial group test according to certain standards, so a seller can voluntarily display certification and consumers will know what they are getting.

    No, and I'm not really concerned with Joe Sixpack at the mall.
    <><><> <><><> <><><>
    Do what thy manhood bids thee do,
    from none but self expect applause;
    He noblest lives and noblest dies
    who makes and keeps his self-made laws.

    -Sir Richard Francis Burton

  18. #43
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    Originally posted by D. Opheim
    I will be a bad idea when considering the "average" consumer. A good sword following the rules and guidelines you listed would cost a lot more than most people are willing to pay.
    Actually that's already the case.
    <><><> <><><> <><><>
    Do what thy manhood bids thee do,
    from none but self expect applause;
    He noblest lives and noblest dies
    who makes and keeps his self-made laws.

    -Sir Richard Francis Burton

  19. #44
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    Keep on topic

    I'm not a moderator here, but the talk of guns is not part of the original idea of this thread. If you want to continue to discuss this then I recommend you go to the pub. The drinks are free.
    I'm lost---- I've gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait.

    If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

    I work for Keyser Söze.

  20. #45
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    Let me (as a newcomer to this thread) bring us back in time - before the assault rifles was an issue.

    What about distal Tapering?

    Some claims on this forum (I will not mention any names) that there are no real proof for the existance of distal tapering. In fact it has been claimed that it is a marketting gimic.

    Personally, I find it very hard to beleive that the DT did not exist, but maybe some of you wise sword makers could settle this once and for all!

    / Pontus

    (By the way, it is all about the reliablility of the weapon when the weapon is needed, the AK47 works in any condition, the M16 on the other hand..... as someone said so wisely on this forum:
    -Thats just my opinion and I like the smell of gasoline!)

  21. #46
    Originally posted by Pontus W
    [B]Let me (as a newcomer to this thread) bring us back in time - before the assault rifles was an issue.

    What about distal Tapering?

    Some claims on this forum (I will not mention any names) that there are no real proof for the existance of distal tapering. In fact it has been claimed that it is a marketting gimic.

    Personally, I find it very hard to beleive that the DT did not exist, but maybe some of you wise sword makers could settle this once and for all!
    Now, there's a nice, neutral stick to thrust into the spokes, hmmm?

  22. #47
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    Originally posted by Pontus W
    Let me (as a newcomer to this thread) bring us back in time - before the assault rifles was an issue.

    What about distal Tapering?

    Some claims on this forum (I will not mention any names) that there are no real proof for the existance of distal tapering. In fact it has been claimed that it is a marketting gimic.

    Personally, I find it very hard to beleive that the DT did not exist, but maybe some of you wise sword makers could settle this once and for all!

    / Pontus

    I have seen both Tinker's and Atrim's swords up close and can testify that both sword makers use distal tapering on almost all the blades they make. The proof is in my had right now.
    I'm lost---- I've gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait.

    If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

    I work for Keyser Söze.

  23. #48
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    Let me re-phrase that:

    The claim was that there is no real evidence that distal tapering was a general way of making swords in the "good ole days" (not today, my Lutel which is a few feet away is also a proof of that )

  24. #49
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    Originally posted by Pontus W

    Let me re-phrase that:

    The claim was that there is no real evidence that distal tapering was a general way of making swords in the "good ole days" (not today, my Lutel which is a few feet away is also a proof of that )
    Point taken, that I can't lay claim too, but considering mass production of swords, there may be some true the the claim. If proper attention is paid to high quality blades (that take much longer to make), I'm sure the truth will be known.
    I'm lost---- I've gone to look for myself. If I should return before I get back, please ask me to wait.

    If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

    I work for Keyser Söze.

  25. #50
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    I also own an Atrim sword that has DT.
    Last edited by Marcus W Earl; 12-14-2003 at 11:45 PM.
    A Man of Great Strength, Driven by Pure Desire, Unwilling to Compromise, Never Accepting Defeat... is called a Hero.

    "For He is God's Minister to You for Good. But if You do Evil, Be Afraid; For He Does Not Bear the Sword in Vain; For He is God's Minister, An Avenger to Execute Wrath on Him Who Practices Evil."
    Romans 13.4

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