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Thread: "holes" in the hilt of my Brit. 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre

  1. #26
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    If these 1796 swords in Germany were, then it was in Hannover, a German
    kingdom, which was bound at England.

    With the few letters on the scabbard I can begin unfortunately nothing.

    Greeting, Thomas
    I hope, you can read my English.
    I must use partially a translater .

  2. #27
    Interesting, Thanks for all the replies everyone. Thanks for posting the pictures Thomas.

    As for the scabbard, I can only make out a few letters here and there.
    Stephen Fisher
    Istruttore Nazionale di Scherma
    Academia Nazionale di Scherma (ITA)
    Prévôt d'Escrime, USFCA/AAI

  3. #28
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    Originally posted by Paul Digard
    Balance point? Many Brit P1853s I've seen have a B stamped on the spine at the balance point.

    Paul
    That's what I meant, balance point. I couldn't think of the words. My 1796 didn't have a B. Just the line. \

    Andre

  4. #29
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    Originally posted by Richard Dellar
    I think its the bending test point.
    Hmm, may well be Richard - now I am at home I picked up my 1796 and realised the 'B' is nowhere near the balance point! The B is about 1cm up from the guard, and the balance point is about 7 inches up...

    Matt

  5. #30
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    Originally posted by Matt Easton
    Hmm, may well be Richard - now I am at home I picked up my 1796 and realised the 'B' is nowhere near the balance point! The B is about 1cm up from the guard, and the balance point is about 7 inches up...

    Matt
    Hi Matt

    Please, that considers the hilt at the sabers, which are today to, not the hilt to be must, which were to, when one calculated the balance point!

    Often parts at the sabers were replaced and thus are correct the
    balance point no longer.

    Greeting, Thomas
    I hope, you can read my English.
    I must use partially a translater .

  6. #31
    Originally posted by Thomas Fritz Zehe
    If these 1796 swords in Germany were, then it was in Hannover, a German
    kingdom, which was bound at England.

    With the few letters on the scabbard I can begin unfortunately nothing.

    Greeting, Thomas
    Don't forget that Britian sent 6,000 1796 LC sabres to Prussia in 1807 and a further 10,000 in 1813.

    As to the B on the back of the blade, generally on both light and heavy sabres there are two points marked - sometimes 2 "B's", sometimes just 2 lines, sometimes a combination of both. Generally they appear at around 6-7 in and 11-12in. from the hilt.

    Richard.
    Celeriter nil crede

  7. #32
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    Very interesting these on-the-field improvements for the guard of the P1796. A bit crude, but functional. I suppose that the PoB was displaced noticeably, but still a functional adaptation.

    Not too much surprising, since some German states extensively used captured French An IX-XI LC sabres along with the regulation 1796/1811ers, and therefore the idea of modifying the laters to resemble the hand protection provided by the formers follows quite naturally.

    Thanks for the pics, Thomas and Stephen!
    SI, SI
    NO, NON

  8. #33
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    Originally posted by Richard Dellar
    Don't forget that Britian sent 6,000 1796 LC sabres to Prussia in 1807 and a further 10,000 in 1813.
    ....

    Richard.
    That is correct!
    Unfortunately many of it, in the original condition,
    are not received. Most this sword were completely revised in the
    course of the time.

    Thomas
    I hope, you can read my English.
    I must use partially a translater .

  9. #34
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    But if the B was for the balance point at any time, then that would mean one of my 1796's had a balance 1cm from the guard.... which I find very unlikely, given that all 1796 sabres have balance points about 7 or 8 inches from the guard!!

    Matt

  10. #35
    Originally posted by Matt Easton
    But if the B was for the balance point at any time, then that would mean one of my 1796's had a balance 1cm from the guard.... which I find very unlikely, given that all 1796 sabres have balance points about 7 or 8 inches from the guard!!

    Matt
    Yes exactly Matt - let me restate that (in my opinion) the "B" or the line designates the point where the blade is subjected to a bending test, nothing at all to do with balance.

    Richard.
    Celeriter nil crede

  11. #36
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  12. #37
    Originally posted by Richard Dellar
    Yes exactly Matt - let me restate that (in my opinion) the "B" or the line designates the point where the blade is subjected to a bending test, nothing at all to do with balance.

    Richard.
    Richard, as ever your knowledge is impressive.

    When I was trying to figure out what the B meant on the spine of my first P1853 I thought I'd cracked it when I discovered the sword balanced at that point. I did wonder though, what use this information might be to the trooper!

    But, is it just coincidence that the bending test point and balance points coincide? Or is there some valid reason for why you should test at the balance point? (At least on P1853s!)

    Paul

  13. #38
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    Just a little question - if the B is a British bend-test stamp, why don't my 1821/45, 1827/45, 1885 and 1899 have it on?

    Matt

  14. #39
    Originally posted by Matt Easton
    Just a little question - if the B is a British bend-test stamp, why don't my 1821/45, 1827/45, 1885 and 1899 have it on?

    Matt
    hello Matt,

    If there is a reason, I'm sure I don't know what it is. All I can say is that some1796 patterns (light and heavy) have the line or the B, or both. Some have nothing at all. Some 1821 and 1853 patterns have different combinations of the line and the B and, again, some have nothing. However, the one thing I am sure of it that it is not the balance point - for example, I used to have an 1821 heavy cavalry trooper's sword which had a B with a line through the middle at 6.5in and 11i n. from the hilt - you can't have two balance points (or does someone know different!). Markings such as these may depend on who made the blade, when it is made, who tested it, etc., etc.

    having said all of that, some officers' swords (mostly Wilkinson I think) do have a centre of percussion mark on the back edge (normally C----->P *) which (like a good cricket bat) marks the "sweet spot".

    Richard.
    Celeriter nil crede

  15. #40

    About side branche and trial swords

    The Prussian performed trials with swords with additional side branche(s).

    In addition to the great information given by Thomas, I think that collectors may be interested by the amazing history of one of these trial patterns.

    In about 1849-1850, some Prussian regiment received trial swords with a new guard with side protections. Gerhard Seifert published some photos of one of them bearing the regimental marking of the Garde-Husaren-Regiment and the Prussian government marking crown over FW over 50.

    Major Hubert von Meyerinck in a memoir published in 1869 and dedicated to the Garde-Husaren mentioned “In Spring 1849 we received some basket swords to perform testing.” Later in the book he wrote “ In February 1857, we received the new basket swords, our trials were found useful” These sword were not precisely the trial swords, but the new M1852 with a more elaborated basket.

    Now, what is amazing is that on the Siefert sword with the Prussian markings, there are additional markings that are…British!
    These British marking are the British inspection marking in Liège (crown over L over 8) and the double arrows mark (obsolescent item sold)
    Robson mentioned (p238) that these swords were probably used by the British Royal Engineers drivers in the 1850s, but cannot give a precise date.
    It looks like these Prussian test swords were sold to England through Liège in Belgium, hence the British L control mark. During the 1850s, England bought rifle muskets from Liège and British controllers were in charge of the final acceptance control. Liège always had close connections with Solingen, often the bayonets and steel ram rods for the rifles made in Liège came actually from Solingen.
    Amazing destiny for these Prussian trial swords, isn’t it?
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  16. #41

    ...and here is the resulting M1852

    The result of the trials...the Model 1852
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  17. #42
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    Jean, several years ago Blunderbuss Antiques in London had a batch of these for sale (the experimental Prussian ones) - The batch had been bought by the Royal Armouries for testing also, and they had both Prussian and British stamps on them. The swords were in almost perfect condition, because they had never been issued, except they were without scabbards. I really regret not getting one, as I find them beautiful and practical.

    Matt

  18. #43
    Originally posted by Matt Easton
    Jean, several years ago Blunderbuss Antiques in London had a batch of these for sale (the experimental Prussian ones) - The batch had been bought by the Royal Armouries for testing also, and they had both Prussian and British stamps on them. The swords were in almost perfect condition, because they had never been issued, except they were without scabbards. I really regret not getting one, as I find them beautiful and practical.

    Matt
    Hi Matt,

    Thanks for the info.
    I would gladly get one too

    Jean

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