Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 147

Thread: dei Liberi's Pisani-Dosi Located

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Falls Church, VA
    Posts
    1,524

    dei Liberi's Pisani-Dosi Located

    I have located the original MS used by Novati for his work on dei Liberi and this has been confirmed.

    It is in a private collection in Italy.

    Please allow us to approach this sensitively with the owners.

    Steve

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,949

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    732

    You Are the Man!

    Steve!

    You're awesome! Great job!

    That dawg will hunt!
    Matt Galas
    Mons, Belgium

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Hobart, Australia
    Posts
    1,838

  5. #5
    That is great news and will answer a number of questions we have about that manuscript.


    Mark Davidson

  6. #6

    Smile

    Excellent!

    and there was much rejoicing...

    - Bent

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Falls Church, VA
    Posts
    1,524
    Originally posted by Mark Davidson
    That is great news and will answer a number of questions we have about that manuscript.


    Mark Davidson
    Mark, like what?

    (We are preparing our list now, and slowly figuring out how to approach the owners)

    Steve

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    732

    Call For Questions

    To second what Steve said above, I would invite anyone with outstanding questions about the Pisani-Dossi Manuscript to post them here. We're putting together a list of questions to be used in examining the manuscript, and would welcome any input. The more participation, the better product we'll have.
    Matt Galas
    Mons, Belgium

  9. #9
    I'd like to see if there is any difference in the layout of the panels between the original and the Novati book.

    Also if the pictures were redrawn or touched up for the Novati book.

    Mark Davidson

  10. #10

    Wow!

    Fantastic!
    This is a great accomplishment...three down, two to go!

    My main interest in the original P-D is confirming page order, and identifying any edits/deletions that Novati may have made. Also, if there are any other notes/markings on, or along with, the MS that could give us a better dating, or clues to other Manuscripts.

    Adam

  11. Thumbs up Thanks, Steve Hick!

    Steve, great work.

    First questions, right off the bat: did Novati "rearrange" his facsimile in any way? Does the facsimile accurately reflect the original? How was the facsimile made? I think it's critical to pin down any difference between facsimile and orginal, no matter how insignificant it may seem.

    Second, do they have any additional information to help pin down the MS dates?
    Sean
    Sean Hayes, Maestro d'armi
    Northwest Fencing Academy

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
    San Jose Fencing Masters Program Examination Board

    One should never confuse the rules of a competition with the rules of an art.

    People talk a lot about speed, but not very much about control, safety, tactics, and trying to get close to the reality of sharps. When simulating sharp fights, how fast one charges in depends on how quickly one would like to die.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sweet home, Chicago
    Posts
    623
    Nice job, Steve! I had always assumed the original was lost in one of the World Wars.

    Good luck on approaching the manuscript’s owners. It will be fascinating to learn if the Novati version actually has any missing sections, or if it was rearranged in any way.

    Please keep us updated!
    Keith Jennings

    Free Scholar, Chicago Swordplay Guild

    Bloodied, but never cry submission.
    Following our instincts, not a trend,
    Go against the grain until the end.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,949

    Re: Wow!

    Originally posted by Adam Velez
    Fantastic!
    This is a great accomplishment...three down, two to go!

    My main interest in the original P-D is confirming page order, and identifying any edits/deletions that Novati may have made. Also, if there are any other notes/markings on, or along with, the MS that could give us a better dating, or clues to other Manuscripts.

    Adam
    What I find most amusing is that the wrestling-dagger-sword-poleweapon-mounted order is in the two works where Fiore states that the order was set out by Niccolo d'Este, whereas in the Morgan we get a completely different order and Fiore says he has set it out according to his intellegence.

    Anyway, answers to these PD questions will probably only come after time and gentle diplomacy. Let's not get too excited just yet.

    Matt

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Scranton, PA - for now
    Posts
    469
    Freakin' awesome.

    I believe in WMA Santa, do YOU?
    -David Peck

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    Note to self - Explore relationship between sleep and relieving exhaustion.

    Scholar - Chicago Swordplay Guild
    Keeper of sword-related texts / Archivist for the Sword Forum
    Purpleheart Armoury, Revival Clothing, Chivalry Bookshelf, Arms & Armor

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Suburban Chicago area
    Posts
    3,595

    Re: Re: Wow!

    Originally posted by Matt Easton
    What I find most amusing is that the wrestling-dagger-sword-poleweapon-mounted order is in the two works where Fiore states that the order was set out by Niccolo d'Este, whereas in the Morgan we get a completely different order and Fiore says he has set it out according to his intellegence.
    Mmm...can you clarify/quote the two passages you are thinking of Matt? This isn't quite how I recollect it.
    Greg Mele
    Chicago Swordplay Guild

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    "If the tongue could cut
    as the sword can do,
    the dead would be infinite."

    Filippo Vadi, "Arte Dimicandi Gladiatoria" (c.1482 - 87)

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,949

    Re: Re: Re: Wow!

    Originally posted by Gregory Mele
    Mmm...can you clarify/quote the two passages you are thinking of Matt? This isn't quite how I recollect it.
    Sure Greg, it's in black and white according to my translations -

    Getty:
    "I, the aforementioned Fiore, considering that of this art there are few Masters in the world, and wanting be remembered in it, I will write a book about the whole art and about all the things I know, of iron and of tempere and of other things, following the instructions which that other nobleman gave me, the one who above the others, because of martial virtue, I like the most, and who deserved more this book of mine, for his nobility, than any other nobleman who I will ever meet or could meet, that is, my illustrious and excellent lord, the powerful prince Messer NICOLO’ Marquis d’Este, Signore of the noble city of Ferrara, of Modena, Reggio and Parma et cetera, to whom God may give a good life and future prosperity, with victory over his enemies AMEN. Let us start the book following my lord Marquis’ directions and let us provide for him so that he lacks nothing in the art, because I am sure that my lord will give me good credit, thanks to his great nobility and courtesy."
    __________________________________________
    Pisani-Dossi is similar to the above in this regard.

    __________________________________________
    Morgan:
    "Considering that in this art you can find in the World few masters, and wanting that there be a memory of me in this art I will make a book in all the art and of all the things I know and of iron and of tempere [temper/attitude] and of other things following that we know to do for the better and in order for more clarity.
    Starting the book following my intellect in a way that anybody will know the meaning easily. And we will make comparisons of five things. That is of masters who are in guard. And of masters that are the remedy and of scholars and of players and of counters of masters and of scholars.
    .................
    .................
    And commencing first with horse, of lance, and of sword, and of wrestling. And then after of lance on foot and then of sword in armour and then of sword in two hands, gioco largo [wide play], and then streto [gioco stretto=narrow play], and then play of pollaxe and then you certainly leave, and then of sword in one hand, and then plays of wrestling on foot and then plays of dagger."
    __________________________________________

    Thus there is no dedication to a patron in Morgan, Fiore says that he will order the book according to his intellegence, and in Getty he says that he has ordered the book according to the intructions of Niccolo d'Este.

    If your translations are different in meaning Greg then please post them!

    Matt

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Suburban Chicago area
    Posts
    3,595

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow!

    Matt,

    I'm at work, so I can't access any of my files, but I would say that the gist of the translations is largely the same. Let me look at it again tonight. However, I would say that you are reading way too much into the "at his directions". The likelihood of Nicolo instructing his fencing master on how to order a book on fencing is pretty unlikely. Besides the obvious, throw-away answer that it defeats the purpose of having Fiore to begin with, this is a boiler-plate dedication to a powerful patron.

    All Fiore is saying is that he's been directed to write this book by his patron. What *is* notable is that the Morgan has no dedication at all, and in many ways follows the same progression of judicial combat we see in the Liechtenauer texts - from horseback to foot, etc. Why? Who was it written for? Good questions, beats me!

    Greg
    Greg Mele
    Chicago Swordplay Guild

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    "If the tongue could cut
    as the sword can do,
    the dead would be infinite."

    Filippo Vadi, "Arte Dimicandi Gladiatoria" (c.1482 - 87)

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,949
    I agree that one could interpret the words in Getty as you suggest - that Fiore is just saying that Niccolo has requested a book. But in Morgan at least we've got this sentence where he says he has laid out the book in accordance with his own intellegence. Obviously nobody can say absolutely one way or the other without a time machine and an AtoZ of Northern Italy c.1410, but I currently hedge my bets as I described previously - I'm not saying I am right, just that this is my current theory.

    Matt

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Oxford, CT, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Hi Matt!

    I'm going to go along with Greg on this one. This is an extremely typical boilerplate statement. By 'direction' he probably just means that he was directed to create the work, present it to his patron, etc.

    For instance: Paulus Kal says "With the help of the highborn lord Duke Ludwig...etc. etc., have I, Paulus Kal, ordered this book..." In no way does this imply that Ludwig sat over Kal's shoulder and told him how to put the manuscript together though. Ludwig's 'help' is simply his patronage.

    These are no more than "couldn't have done it without you, boss" statements.

    All the best,

    Christian
    Christian Henry Tobler
    Selohaar Fechtschule

    The Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Author, Captain of the Guild, DVD: The Poleaxe, In Saint George's Name

    "Though I love the stout blow and the cunningly placed thrust, my greatest joy when crossing swords lies in those rare moments when Chivalry herself leans over and takes one into Her confidence."

  20. Fiore's Ghost

    Originally posted by Matt Easton
    Thus there is no dedication to a patron in Morgan, Fiore says that he will order the book according to his intellegence, and in Getty he says that he has ordered the book according to the intructions of Niccolo d'Este.
    Matt-

    Like Greg, I think that the Getty prologue simply states that Nicolo directed Fiore to write the book, and not the way in which to order it. I think your own translation supports this reading very nicely.

    The real difference between the Getty and Morgan prologues is that Nicolo is not mentioned in the Morgan. We can speculate endlessly about this, and I will here resist the temptation to do so.

    But there's one other point to keep in mind about the three surviving Fiore manuscripts: we have no idea if Fiore executed them or even knew of their existence. The Getty museum's notes say the it may possibly have been in possession of Nicolo III d'Este, but there's no proof. The Morgan has been dated to the library of Jacopo Soranzo (a Venetian senator), which library was sold in 1780.

    I am not asserting that Fiore never saw these three copies, but I am saying we can't prove it one way or the other in our present state of knowledge. What we do know about the Morgan (from the museum notes, sadly I don't have the Morgan itself) is that the artwork is attributed to "two Northern Italian, possibly Venetian or Veronese artists." On this basis it doesn't sound like Fiore drew it, unless he was one of the two. What this means, I think, is that we have to consider the possibility that these manuscripts are at least at one remove from Fiore. As such, they may well have been revised or re-organized for particular purposes.

    Now, I'm as likely as anyone to state "Fiore says this and Fiore says that", but in truth we don't know if we're reading Fiore's literal words or not.

    Best,

    Sean
    Sean Hayes, Maestro d'armi
    Northwest Fencing Academy

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
    San Jose Fencing Masters Program Examination Board

    One should never confuse the rules of a competition with the rules of an art.

    People talk a lot about speed, but not very much about control, safety, tactics, and trying to get close to the reality of sharps. When simulating sharp fights, how fast one charges in depends on how quickly one would like to die.


  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Guildford, Surrey, England.
    Posts
    13,949

    Re: Fiore's Ghost

    Originally posted by Sean Hayes
    But there's one other point to keep in mind about the three surviving Fiore manuscripts: we have no idea if Fiore executed them or even knew of their existence. The Getty museum's notes say the it may possibly have been in possession of Nicolo III d'Este, but there's no proof.
    Even more than this, the descriptions of the two copies of Fior di Battaglia that were in the Estense Library from 1436 to 1508 do not match exactly any of the versions we know about today.

    I am not asserting that Fiore never saw these three copies, but I am saying we can't prove it one way or the other in our present state of knowledge.
    Only an imbecile would argue with that Sean .
    What we can assume, I think, is that Fiore owned a book or books on fighting before making one - at least if we believe the prologues to the versions we know of. And also that the famous Galeazzo da Mantova, a student of Fiore's, had a book (or more) on fighting.
    What we can say for definite is that there were two copies of Fior di Battaglia in the Estense Library between 1436 and 1508, as well as another anonymous book on fighting.

    How many different copies were made of Fior di Battaglia we cannot say - especially considering that Ludwig von Eyb and Flippo Vadi seem to have had access to copies of it.

    Both Getty and Morgan ended up in Venice, before both being bought by Englishmen, and then by Americans.

    What we do know about the Morgan (from the museum notes, sadly I don't have the Morgan itself) is that the artwork is attributed to "two Northern Italian, possibly Venetian or Veronese artists." On this basis it doesn't sound like Fiore drew it, unless he was one of the two. What this means, I think, is that we have to consider the possibility that these manuscripts are at least at one remove from Fiore. As such, they may well have been revised or re-organized for particular purposes.
    Basically we cannot say if any of the versions we know about today were made in direct contact with Fiore himself. We can not say one way or the other.

    Now, I'm as likely as anyone to state "Fiore says this and Fiore says that", but in truth we don't know if we're reading Fiore's literal words or not.
    Of course that is true. Yet I still return to my original statement that Getty says that Niccolo has set out how he wants his treatise while Morgan states that it has been set out according to the author's 'intellegence'.

    That this discussion has blossomed from that statement of fact is not my doing . I simply said:
    "What I find most amusing is that the wrestling-dagger-sword-poleweapon-mounted order is in the two works where Fiore states that the order was set out by Niccolo d'Este, whereas in the Morgan we get a completely different order and Fiore says he has set it out according to his intellegence. "

    I'm not making any great conclusions - simply stating an observation of the sources, and honestly I am quite amazed at how you guys can take such a statement and make it into some great bone of contention!! There is no debate here, so I'm rather bewildered as to what exactly the three of you seem to be debating about .

    Now, maybe back to the regular programme?

    Matt

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Falls Church, VA
    Posts
    1,524

    Re: Re: Fiore's Ghost

    Originally posted by Matt Easton
    Even more than this, the descriptions of the two copies of Fior di Battaglia that were in the Estense Library from 1436 to 1508 do not match exactly any of the versions we know about today.

    (SNIP)
    What we can say for definite is that there were two copies of Fior di Battaglia in the Estense Library between 1436 and 1508, as well as another anonymous book on fighting.

    (SNIP)

    Both Getty and Morgan ended up in Venice, before both being bought by Englishmen, and then by Americans.

    (SNIP)

    Matt

    Do we have any intelligence about what happened after 1508?I can't remember whether there was a later inventory done, where it was noted they were missing, so we can narrow down the date when they moved outside of the collection.

    Meanwhile, does anyone know anything about the anonymous material?

    Anonymous; Libro uno che trata de fati da chomatere in carta bambaxina couerto de una carta de pegora; Estense 1436 Inventory of 1436, 1467 and 1508 of the library of Niccolo III, marchese d'Este; no. 111 Novati, pg. 44, footnotes 39, 90 (v. anche Cappelli, op. cit, p. 18, n. 94).

    or anther work from the same collection:

    d'Attendoli, Marco; Libro delle battaglia; Estense <1467 Novati; footnote 90 (cfr. Giron. Stor. Della lett. Ital., v. l, 1883, p. 69) In messo ai mss. Entrati a far parte dele collezioni l'anno 1467

    Basically we cannot say if any of the versions we know about today were made in direct contact with Fiore himself. We can not say one way or the other.

    And German's bought the Getty from Thomas Bart where is was in the Ludwig Collection in Koln until the Getty acquired it sometime in the 1990s. The work was located through kinding it on a descriptions of MSS in that collection, and then tracking down where the Ludwig collection went.

    And Sean wrote:

    [QUOTE][B]

    (SNIP)
    But there's one other point to keep in mind about the three surviving Fiore manuscripts: we have no idea if Fiore executed them or even knew of their existence. The Getty museum's notes say the it may possibly have been in possession of Nicolo III d'Este, but there's no proof. The Morgan has been dated to the library of Jacopo Soranzo (a Venetian senator), which library was sold in 1780.

    (SNIP)

    Matt Galas has done a fairly extensive history of the MS for the Getty and the Morgan, I have it at home, if your interested, or Matt could chime in.

    However, what we have is likely closer that that in time and space, the art and hand is roughly ca 1410, we argue whether one is more 1440, or perhaps some are more like 1405, none is as late as Vadi. Unlike the German Talhoffer, we have no 16th century versions of dei Liberi

    Steve

  23. Re: Re: Fiore's Ghost

    Originally posted by Matt Easton
    I'm not making any great conclusions - simply stating an observation of the sources, and honestly I am quite amazed at how you guys can take such a statement and make it into some great bone of contention!! There is no debate here, so I'm rather bewildered as to what exactly the three of you seem to be debating about .
    ?

    Matt, you've stated your belief that Nicolo III d'Este is, in effect, a co-author of the Fiore manuscripts. If such a thing was true it would be, as they say, "huge".

    Greg, Christian and I have stated that we don't believe that to be the case. It's not a "great bone of contention". It's a simple disagreement with your assertion that Nicolo dictated the pedagogical order of the Fior di Battaglia. All we're sayin' here is that we think Nicolo told Fiore to write a book.

    Now, I think it would actually be pretty cool if your assertion was true, because it would involve Nicolo very directly with Fiore. At present, we don't even know if Nicolo had any substantial interaction with Fiore, beyond installing him as an ornament of the court.

    ...e d'altre chose segondo l'ordene lo quale m'à dado quell'alto Signore che sopra gli altri per marcial virtud'... (Rubboli Transcription)

    ...and other things following the order which my high Gentleman says, who is above others for martial virtue...(Exiles Translation)

    It hinges on how one translates "segondo ordene" (secondo ordine). "Ordine" is a word which can mean either sequence (as you suggest) or command (as we suggest); "Secondo" means "according to". One phrase in my dictionary is "secondo la legge", "in accordance with the law", which is not unlike "segondo l'ordene" in construction.

    It may be considered textually ambiguous, but Christian's observation that this fits perfectly well with all the pro forma declarations to and about one's patron that exist in works of this type is very true. It's an extremely typical construction not limited to fencing manuscripts and books.

    Now, maybe back to the regular programme?
    Such as closely-argued discussion of the nuances of historical fencing treatises?

    Sean
    Sean Hayes, Maestro d'armi
    Northwest Fencing Academy

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
    San Jose Fencing Masters Program Examination Board

    One should never confuse the rules of a competition with the rules of an art.

    People talk a lot about speed, but not very much about control, safety, tactics, and trying to get close to the reality of sharps. When simulating sharp fights, how fast one charges in depends on how quickly one would like to die.


  24. Re: Re: Re: Fiore's Ghost

    Originally posted by Steve Hick
    Matt Galas has done a fairly extensive history of the MS for the Getty and the Morgan, I have it at home, if your interested, or Matt could chime in.
    Interested (!)..."champing at the bit" is more like it. Yes, I'd be very pleased to see that!

    Sean
    Sean Hayes, Maestro d'armi
    Northwest Fencing Academy

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
    San Jose Fencing Masters Program Examination Board

    One should never confuse the rules of a competition with the rules of an art.

    People talk a lot about speed, but not very much about control, safety, tactics, and trying to get close to the reality of sharps. When simulating sharp fights, how fast one charges in depends on how quickly one would like to die.


  25. Re: Re: Re: Fiore's Ghost

    Originally posted by Steve Hick
    However, what we have is likely closer that that in time and space, the art and hand is roughly ca 1410, we argue whether one is more 1440, or perhaps some are more like 1405, none is as late as Vadi. Unlike the German Talhoffer, we have no 16th century versions of dei Liberi
    Right - poor phrasing on my part: I wasn't suggesting that the Morgan (or the others) were made later than the 15th century, just that the Morgan's notes give 1780 as the earliest known date in the MS's history.

    Sean
    Sean Hayes, Maestro d'armi
    Northwest Fencing Academy

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
    San Jose Fencing Masters Program Examination Board

    One should never confuse the rules of a competition with the rules of an art.

    People talk a lot about speed, but not very much about control, safety, tactics, and trying to get close to the reality of sharps. When simulating sharp fights, how fast one charges in depends on how quickly one would like to die.


Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •