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Thread: Self Training, a public service announcement

  1. >I study the manuals and treatises, and learn what I can, when I can. I then practice these techniques to see how they work. Sometimes I'll spar with people, to find out what works, and what doesn't>

    Almost everyone in WMA is in the same position as you. If it wasn't for small groups of people getting together in their back yards to work out what the old manuals were saying, there would be no WMA movement. But I want to address this one part of your post, because I think it's a very widespread fallacy.
    The manuals we work from were written when people still fought with sharp swords. They are not just collections of techniques or neat tricks to try in sparring, but complete systems with a logic of their own. That logic was developed over many generations of experience in life or death conflict with weapons. I don't believe it's possible for us to "spar with people, to find out what works." We're simply not qualified to do so, at least not if we try to apply the manuals as a collection of techniques rather than as complete fencing systems.
    If you read a line in a certain manual and say "that sounds clever, I'll try that trick tomorrow in sparring," and then you try it and you can't make it work, does that mean you've "found out that it doesn't work"?
    No. It means that you don't understand the science described in that manual completely enough to know exactly when, where, how and why to use that technique effectively.
    Of course, there are probably some things in the manuals that simply aren't very good ideas despite being old. But until you understand the art as a whole to a pretty high degree you're not really in a position say for sure. And even then you should never jump to that conclusion. That's why, if you take two fencers- one who uses the "grab bag of techniques" approach, and one who studies fencing as an integrated art and science, assuming that everything in the system is there for a reason- the second one, in my experience, will almost always win. He has actually learned the system described in the manual; his opponent has only skimmed it for tricks to use in sparring, and those tricks exist in isolation without a system to hold them together.
    I'm not writing this to criticize you personally, or your fencing skill, about which I know nothing. But I do want to encourage everyone to reject the idea that we can re-invent the wheel in our backyards or that we should even try. Bouting exists to test our understanding of the art, not to test whether the art works in the first place. The beginning and end of what we do in WMA must be the historical manuals and the systems they describe.
    "Am fear a thug buaidh air fhein, thug e buaidh air namhaid."

  2. #52
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    I've been reading some of the posts in this thread (not all, but some) and I find the discussion on self taught vs. instructor and the mention of the styles and the way they did it back in the good old days to be rather facinating, and I wonder why no one has commented on Miyamoto Musashi as of yet (appologies if he or any of this was mentioned in one of the posts I skipped over). If anyone is particularly interested in any of this you might want to look for the following book:
    "Musashi" by Eiji Yoshikawa
    I'm about a third of the way through it myself, having just been lent it by a good friend, and have thus far found it to be both an excellent read and very interesting in regards to the early 1600's of Japan and the samurai of the time.
    Just a thought.

  3. #53
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    Originally posted by Kelly W.
    I've been reading some of the posts in this thread (not all, but some) and I find the discussion on self taught vs. instructor and the mention of the styles and the way they did it back in the good old days to be rather facinating, and I wonder why no one has commented on Miyamoto Musashi as of yet (appologies if he or any of this was mentioned in one of the posts I skipped over). If anyone is particularly interested in any of this you might want to look for the following book:
    "Musashi" by Eiji Yoshikawa
    I'm about a third of the way through it myself, having just been lent it by a good friend, and have thus far found it to be both an excellent read and very interesting in regards to the early 1600's of Japan and the samurai of the time.
    Just a thought.
    musashi had a basis in the arts, from what i remember.

    he had a sensei at one point.
    I like swords.

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  4. #54
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    true, his father taught him the basics till he was 17, as I understand it, but after that he was masterless. As I said, I find the discussion interesting. He was taught something by his father, but by no means did his father impart the real meaning of being a samurai to him. From then on he was self-taught, though he was given advice from time to time by masters of various sword schools. I wasn't implying that he was an example of a self-taught swordsman, at least not exactly. I was more pointing out that he was taught some things, but the rest he realised for himself, if that makes sense. . . . very interesting discussion, though.

  5. #55
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    Originally posted by Kelly W.
    true, his father taught him the basics till he was 17, as I understand it, but after that he was masterless. As I said, I find the discussion interesting. He was taught something by his father, but by no means did his father impart the real meaning of being a samurai to him. From then on he was self-taught, though he was given advice from time to time by masters of various sword schools. I wasn't implying that he was an example of a self-taught swordsman, at least not exactly. I was more pointing out that he was taught some things, but the rest he realised for himself, if that makes sense. . . . very interesting discussion, though.
    the person to ask about musashi would be hyakutake colin

    i do believe, however, that musashi might not have been as extravagant as the stories say. a great swordsman, yes, invincible? i'm not so sure.

    but even he, the "great" musashi humbled himself to learn from another.

    even bruce lee did this. he learned a lot of martial arts, and threw away what didnt work for him.

    but there was always an instructor involved.
    I like swords.

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    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  6. #56
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    appologies, I wasn't trying to imply that imparting to learn the sword without instrustion was the thing to do. I was under the impression that Musashi taught himself a fair amount of what he knew, however, and as such was able to contribute greatly to the sword arts and martial arts in general. I was merely trying to suggest that there are benefits in doing a little of both, though not everyone will have the ability to do so. If all anyone ever did was follow instructions without question we would no longer have martial artists, only robots, and the progression of the arts would cease. An instructor often tells you that things are a set way and that certain things are wrong, then perhaps as you progress through the art the rules will change again, and if you tried a different school they may teach what you were previously taught never to do. Learning only from an instructor could, in theory, prevent you from trying certain things because you have been told so adamantly that they were wrong. I'm not saying that everyone would think this way, but many would just accept what they were told.




    "Knowledge may hinder. Ignorance may liberate. Knowing when to know and when not to know, this is as important as a fluent blade"
    - Suzume-No-Kumo (1434)




    "The reasonable man conforms to the world around him. The unreasonable man expects the world to conform to him. Therefore: it is the unreasonable man who creates progress"
    - George Bernard Shaw




    Food for thought, no?

  7. #57
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    Originally posted by Kelly W.
    appologies, I wasn't trying to imply that imparting to learn the sword without instrustion was the thing to do. I was under the impression that Musashi taught himself a fair amount of what he knew, however, and as such was able to contribute greatly to the sword arts and martial arts in general. I was merely trying to suggest that there are benefits in doing a little of both, though not everyone will have the ability to do so. If all anyone ever did was follow instructions without question we would no longer have martial artists, only robots, and the progression of the arts would cease. An instructor often tells you that things are a set way and that certain things are wrong, then perhaps as you progress through the art the rules will change again, and if you tried a different school they may teach what you were previously taught never to do. Learning only from an instructor could, in theory, prevent you from trying certain things because you have been told so adamantly that they were wrong. I'm not saying that everyone would think this way, but many would just accept what they were told.




    "Knowledge may hinder. Ignorance may liberate. Knowing when to know and when not to know, this is as important as a fluent blade"
    - Suzume-No-Kumo (1434)




    "The reasonable man conforms to the world around him. The unreasonable man expects the world to conform to him. Therefore: it is the unreasonable man who creates progress"
    - George Bernard Shaw




    Food for thought, no?

    Kelly, sorry about that, i think it was more me misunderstaning you.

    in my experience, very martial artist changes things in their own way, to suit themself. the original technique is still there, and you can learn the original technique, but you will learn it in your own way. therefore, we all are technically "making up our own style."

    i pm'ed Hyakutake Colin, and he told me, about Musashi: "Of course he learned from other people. But he had the talent to confidently create his own style in times of conflict."

    he also sad that his Soke likes to tell them that "There was no one before Musashi. There will be no one after." Basically saying that no one would be able to do what he did these days. Espescially when there are so many copies of "Gorin No Sho," because of how Musashi wrote it. Basically no one really knows what Musashi was really saying in the book, because how he wrote it, it can be taken so many different ways.

    It's simply just not needed to create your own style, much less use a sword now, so everything is going to be "watered down" a bit. You can't learn from men that managed to survive a few fights, and that had to use this stuff in war.

    and, what colin left me with, was "What we learn from him today is that it is possible to turn from satsujinken (killing sword) to katsujinken (life giving sword). That its not the weapons that kill but the human beings that use them."

    so, there's some food for thought for you

    Musashi is said to have demanded a togi repair his sword, and the togi refused to repair a weapon of murder, and told him that he would only polish a warriors soul. this was the turning point for musashi, who thought about it for a while, wanting to kill the togi, but he eventually understood what the togi meant, and returned and asked the togi to repair his soul. at this point, the togi, realising he was serious and had changed, agreed and repaired his sword for him.
    I like swords.

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    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  8. #58
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    Originally posted by Jeff Ellis
    musashi had a basis in the arts, from what i remember.

    he had a sensei at one point.
    Yeah, many legendary Kengos may be portraited in novel or movie as self-tought guinesses, but before their self-training they already trained for many years in dojo. Miyamoto Musashi, for example, during his entire childhood years he studied kenjutsu under his father.

  9. #59
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    I have read this thread, and many others along the lines of self training, with interest. First of all, I find it a little extreme that any sword school would require you to have a black belt in another form before teaching the sword, but that is their prerogative. I have heard of many schools that require you to learn the hand to hand element before allowing you to touch the sword, and also ones that make you use a bokken for years before getting a mogito, and then a live blade. I respect those schools for their holistic approach, however I personally am more interested in the sword than hand to hand (although my studies of Fiore have brought me full circle to wrestling techniques, ironically) and I sought out a place that would allow me to start with the sword right away. I have been training in Suio Ryu for over a year (just licking the tip of the iceberg) and WMA, mostly the Italian Longsword and sidesword/early rapier. I will say that learning JSA self-taught is basically going to be a frustrating and almost pointless endeavor, not because it is too difficult (it is difficult) but because there is no real resource for book/video learning that can or will teach you proper form, technique, and concepts. The JSA are far more xenophobic and exclusive than the WMA at this point, and many schools go so far as to get a blood oath never to reveal the secrets of that school. The WMA is far more open and unprotective of its studies, many of the period manuals can be found for free online (it's up to you to interpret and comprehend them, however) and there are serious martial artists as well as scholars that are furiously writing/publishing books to tell the world what they have learned through their studies and experimentation, and have produced many great works on interpreting the old systems. I have attended seminars and training sessions in WMA, as well as learned from books, videos, historic manuals, and my own experimentation with fellow sword enthusiasts. I doubt that you will find this kind of attitude in JSA, not because of any elitism or snobbery, but because these schools have been set in their ways sometimes for centuries and do not have an open scholarly approach, rather they endeavour to keep their techniques pure and as the founders intended. Therefore you likely will not find any real instruction in a true koryu or ryu from a book or video, you may learn to cut or practice kendo kata or do iai, but not a true martial art as taught by an accredited sensei or teacher in a traditional JSA. I do not want to discourage your interest, in fact to the contrary I would encourage your passions and desire to learn the honorable art of the sword, in any capacity. But I do want to help you understand, and anyone interested in learning, what your options are and what the best course is to undertake a passion as diverse and demanding as swordsmanship. The best way to learn the Japanese Sword would truly be to join a school and train under a sensei or instructor. If you can't find one that will take you, or if they are unaccessible for some reason I would suggest training in the WMA to see how you like it. You may be surprised, I certainly was when I first realized that the Longsword (Italian and German) was every bit as fast, effective, deadly, and deep as the koryu I study. I personally found everything I wanted to learn from the katana in the longsword (this may make no sense, but that is another thread). For all those who want to learn swordsmanship, do not let a lack of money, time, or access to a respectable Salle or Dojo keep you from your interest, but think of how much more you could learn from people who have years of personal experience and centuries of history behind them. Buying some books and videos, and practicing in your back yard is just the beginning of a long road towards bettering yourself in one form or another. If you are really just interested in playing Samurai or Knight for a while, the road will be short and you will not care in a year or two anyway. If you have the true heart of a swordsman, you will not stop at that point and you will find a way to overcome whatever obstacles are facing you to learn your art as well as you can.

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    Re: My 1/2 a cents worth ...

    Originally posted by Donald Rice
    I know I’m the poster boy for not self teaching ....

    but , the way I figure it , all sword styles had to start somewhere , I mean who was the guy who came up with the first sword style , and how did the other ones start ..??? My guess is , someone had to just start doing stuff and by trial and error come up with something worth passing on ...!?

    Ok sure this way of learning is extremely dangerous, but in my opinion if you are old enough and wise enough to make your own life choices, and you accept that ya might end up in the hospital at some point , than if that's what you truly want to do than what the hell ...we all gotta die sometime ..!!

    Who knows you may come up with a brand new move that no one has seen before , one that is super effective or somethin . We seem to have a somewhat limited idea of the many variations of the styles back then , each person probably had a slight variation on the styles of the times no doubt , and there were lots of folks back then using swords ...so you have a pretty good chance of finding at least one of those guys styles ....of course there‘s no way of authenticating your style, but if it makes you feel good when ya practice it ...then what the heck ...enjoy... and keep a good first aid kit near by ... *S*

    I think no matter what you do , ultimately you are gonna be the one facing any consequences ....this forum and the knowledgeable folks here can tell ya how to not make the mistakes of the past ....but if you wish to make em yourself than as they say ...“Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other"

    As a last note I think I should clarify ...I’ve been one of those “fools” most of my life ...*S*

    Don bo
    I just wanted to say.. this is my first post on these forums. I am seventeen and I have been practicing with and collecting numerous types of weapons for five years now.
    There are no iai dojos near here, and there is no one to teach me how to cut. I have cut with and sharpened my own swords, and I have ruined several of them. However, I learned from my mistakes, and eventually plan on training in Japan. For this purpose, I have taken on study of the Japanese language.
    The only thing that allows me to continue my practice is the attitude that common sense will allow me to sharpen my skills, aid in innovation, and keep my mind and body maleable for the eventual training I hope to recieve.
    I just wanted to say that I have stopped at this post in this thread to say that this attitude is the sum of every belief that I have in the matter. The attitude of mandatory instruction, while obviously correct for perfection of official form, is damaging to aspiring swordsmen who do not have the resources or time to trek a great distance and recieve training but still hold a deep respect for the danger of a keen edge and unsteady mind.
    I have cut myself exactly three times and I remember each one. Those with open minds should accept that there can be effective training outside of a dojo for people who are willing to accept the risk of training alone.
    Jack

  11. #61

    Re: Re: My 1/2 a cents worth ...

    Originally posted by Jack O'Sullivan
    I just wanted to say.. this is my first post on these forums. I am seventeen and I have been practicing with and collecting numerous types of weapons for five years now.
    There are no iai dojos near here, and there is no one to teach me how to cut....
    Jack, look up Dave Drawdy on this forum; quality instruction in several sword arts is available, right in your backyard....
    Last edited by Brian Pettett; 01-03-2006 at 07:24 PM.

  12. #62
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    Roger that.
    There are dojos/dojangs for more than one sword art in the DC area.

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    It's convenient to say I live in DC but in reality I live about 25 mins away from Georgetown. Nearest dojo I've found is 50 mins away in traffic, and besides.. I don't have a car
    Jack

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    Originally posted by Jack O'Sullivan
    It's convenient to say I live in DC but in reality I live about 25 mins away from Georgetown. Nearest dojo I've found is 50 mins away in traffic, and besides.. I don't have a car
    You don't have a car due to finances or age?

    Also, if you ask some of the folks here that have been studying JSA, there are those that drive upwards of an hour and a half to get instruction.

    This summer I intend on driving a good 45 minutes to an hour north of my home to get instruction, or an hour and a half west. haven't decided yet.

    If you are interested enough, you will find a way.
    Last edited by Jeff Ellis; 01-05-2006 at 12:08 PM.
    I like swords.

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    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  15. #65
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    Finances. The only time I can get a car is on Sat. when me mum isn't working (so I can get to my job). If I could get a car any other time I'd jump at the chance to brave a lengthy commute for training, but it won't happen until we get a third car..
    Jack

  16. #66
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    Originally posted by Jack O'Sullivan
    Finances. The only time I can get a car is on Sat. when me mum isn't working (so I can get to my job). If I could get a car any other time I'd jump at the chance to brave a lengthy commute for training, but it won't happen until we get a third car..
    As far as I am aware, Dave Drawdy's classes are on Saturdays.
    I like swords.

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    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  17. #67
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    "so I can get to my job"
    Jack

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    I was asked to chime in on this by my friend. Cause I prefer to lurk on SFI instead of posting.


    I am a member of Drawdy-sensei's group. One of the groups that he teaches is located in Arlington, VA. Right off Lee Highway. Commute would be roughly 6min o lessr to get from the dojo to Georgetown. Its literally 1 straight road to get to the bridge that crosses from Rosslyn to Georgetown. We are right near the border of Washington DC and Arlington. The schedule for the Capital Area Budokai for Saturday is

    11am to 1pm - Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo
    1pm to 3pm - Nakamura Ryu Batto-do
    3pm to 6pm - Kyudo

    Thats all I'm posting. PM me or something I don't know.

    Later




    V Nguyen

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    There is also a Haidong Gumdo dojang in Vienna.

    210 Dominion Road NE
    Vienna, Virginia
    Phone (703) 255-0202

    Their Gumdo classes are wednesdays at 7:30 pm and Saturdays at 2:00pm.

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    Wow! All of the places you guys were suggesting to me are too far away to get to by bicycle, which is my only means of transport- but guess what! Apparently a man named Doshu Shintaku teaches a very small kendo/iaido class at his home in Kensington, MD, less than 13 miles away from my house! (The next nearest dojo I've found on my own is 34 miles through thick traffic- the VA dojo is closer though)
    This is apparently a very new/ small class, so I think I'm extremely lucky to have found out about it- all they gave was the phone number in an obscure directory with no info. I know I'll be there this Wednesday at seven to observe my first class. I can't wait. Oh! And that Capital Area Budokai dojo you guys tipped me off to, while farther away, is still possible and teaches naginata, which is a big surprise.
    It's too bad kyuudou practice takes place on Sat. or I'd look into that too :/
    Thanks alot, guys
    edit: spelling corrected, happy lurkings
    Last edited by Jack O'Sullivan; 01-06-2006 at 03:26 PM.
    Jack

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    Originally posted by Jack O'Sullivan
    Wow! All of the places you guys were suggesting to me are too far away to get to by bicycle, which is my only means of transport- but guess what! Apparently a man named Doshu Shintaku teaches a very small kendo/iaido class at his home in Kensington, MD, less than 13 miles away from my house! (The next nearest dojo I've found on my own is 34 miles through thick traffic- the VA dojo is closer though)
    This is apparently a very new/ small class, so I think I'm extremely lucky to have found out about it- all they gave was the phone number in an obscure directory with no info. I know I'll be there this Wednesday at seven to observe my first class. I can't wait. Oh! And that VA Kenshikai dojo you guys tipped me off to, while farther away, is still possible and teaches naginata, which is a big surprise.
    It's too bad kyuudou practice takes place on Sat. or I'd look into that too :/
    Thanks alot, guys
    Ok again I'm only posting to make a correction on something you wrote. First off the dojo name is Virginia KENSHINKAI. The Virginia Kenshinkai does not teach any other art other then Nakamura-ryu Batto-do. The Virginia Kenshinkai is associated with the Capital Area Budokai(formerly known as the Northern Virginia Budokai) which offers the other arts such as Naginata, Kyudo, Jodo and Kendo.


    Sorry I have issues with people's spelling sometimes.

    Back to lurking.






    V Nguyen
    Last edited by V Nguyen; 01-06-2006 at 01:36 PM.

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    As Viet said, each class has a different instructor. Bill Reid, our kyudo instructor, does do some teaching on Saturday, as well, at his home. For any more information, go ahead and e-mail me offline at tatsushu AT gmail.com. I act as the Secretary and Treasurer and can put you in touch with the individual instructors and explain the setup. We can also try to help you out with rides if you are nearby (e.g. I'm out in Centreville, and we have others in Maryland, north of DC; and down in Alexandria).

    I can also help you with kendo dojos--I know there is one in Columbia, MD; one in Rockville, MD; and a couple in Northern, VA (including the Capital Area Budokai). That doesn't count kumdo dojang, and I don't know about other non-AUSKF kendo.




    -Joshua Badgley

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    Okay, I read most of the posts here, and I have to say as much as I want to have an instructor, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for me. Where I live, there are merely a few people remotely interested in katana that I know of. The only option left is self practice. Come to think of it, I'm self taught in anything that I do, and there are things that I do well, things I taught myself.

    When you are teaching yourself, you go through mistakes that allow you to really progress once you are past them. When somebody teaches you something, you never get to really understand all those mistakes, and there is little room for art, since all you do is repeat what you are told, thus somehow indulge yourself in something that's more of a craft rather than art. I know there are basics, and that they should serve as a foundation to build on, but surprisingly enough, in some areas I have built and continue building on my own foundations.

    It's amazing what you learn when you've never been taught.


    Edit: Well, after some research, I managed to find something very interesting... Apparently, we have a Bulgarian Kendo Federation here, where there is a 4th dan Iaido instructor. What are your thoughts on this? Maybe that's the way to get started. Excuse my ignorance, but is 4th dan something major or not really?
    Last edited by Chris G. George; 01-12-2006 at 03:23 PM.
    No warrior is equipped for battle without weaponry.

  24. #74
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    Originally posted by Chris G. George
    Okay, I read most of the posts here, and I have to say as much as I want to have an instructor, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for me. Where I live, there are merely a few people remotely interested in katana that I know of. The only option left is self practice. Come to think of it, I'm self taught in anything that I do, and there are things that I do well, things I taught myself.

    .....

    It's amazing what you learn when you've never been taught.


    Edit: Well, after some research, I managed to find something very interesting... Apparently, we have a Bulgarian Kendo Federation here, where there is a 4th dan Iaido instructor. What are your thoughts on this? Maybe that's the way to get started. Excuse my ignorance, but is 4th dan something major or not really?
    http://www.google.com/search?q=iaido+bulgaria

    4th dan, 4th ranking past "black belt"



    so, yes. it is major.

    Amazing what you learn when you've never been taught?

    Proper hand placement?

    How to properly swing the sword?

    The twisting of the hands at the end of the cut?

    How and when to focus your ki to gain maximum power?

    How to show respect to your sword and to the folks that created the art you are practicing?

    How to clean your sword?

    How to properly perform noto?

    Why you move a certain way, and why your head/hand/arm/foot/leg/nose/ear/eye/finger would be removed if you step too far out of place and have your arms in the wrong position?

    Where the art came from?

    Where the art is going?

    You can't learn most of that stuff on your own.

    Sorry, I don't buy that teaching yourself in this day and age works, espescially since you never learn if it does work as you can't go out and start dueling people, legally.
    Last edited by Jeff Ellis; 01-12-2006 at 03:33 PM.
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
    SCHOLA GLADIATORIA
    ______________________________

    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  25. #75
    Originally posted by Jeff Ellis
    http://www.google.com/search?q=iaido+bulgaria

    Sorry, I don't buy that teaching yourself in this day and age works, espescially since you never learn if it does work as you can't go out and start dueling people, legally.
    To that regard, mind you I am just playing devils ad here.
    I believe that is the whole gripe that self trainers have. Others sit in there Dojo and scoff at the self taught because they do not do this or that. then this statement is made... To be blunt, you, me and others do not "really" know if all your training is any "more" real, because not only do the self taught not get to duel but neither do you, me or others. So yes, you get to learn all that you stated and it is a wonderful Sport but that is all any of this is, a Sport. So the bottom line is encourage learning, not Dojo “elitism”, There are “other” ways.
    The World is Black and White...
    Grey is a color that people use to delude themselves into believing that they are not doing wrong.

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