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Thread: French cuirassier sword on ebay

  1. #1

    French cuirassier sword on ebay

    We've discussed many times replica French cuirassier swords appearing on ebay as the genuine thing, but here is a genuine example with the rarest of all features - its original AnXIII model scabbard. I don't think I've ever seen one on ebay before and its been many years since I've seen one of these scabbards for sale anywhere. And better still, the sword has the original hatchet point to the blade. If anybody is looking for one of these swords, this is a very rare opportunity (I'm not connected to the seller by the way!)

    Ebay : 6605445364

    Richard
    Last edited by Richard Dellar; 02-14-2006 at 01:06 AM.
    Celeriter nil crede

  2. #2
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    French cuirassier sword

    Richard. My knowledge of French swords is very limited so I have to ask why you think this is an original. The guard and grip look to be new and the seller says "I think it can be an old copy - just don't know" The photos of the hilt are not close enough so I "just don't know" either. I would appreciate some enlightment from your expertise...Regards, Robert

  3. #3

    Re: French cuirassier sword

    Originally posted by Robert E. Ozias
    Richard. My knowledge of French swords is very limited so I have to ask why you think this is an original. The guard and grip look to be new and the seller says "I think it can be an old copy - just don't know" The photos of the hilt are not close enough so I "just don't know" either. I would appreciate some enlightment from your expertise...Regards, Robert
    Hello Robert,

    Well of course I can only go on the photographs like everybody else so I am not guaranteeing its genuine, I hope you understand. However, I can see absolutely nothing wrong with it, there are none of the obvious replica signs. The hilt has the right sort of geometry, the brass looks the right sort of colour, the bars go into the pommel, there are no false stampings, grip looks Ok, etc. So, I guess its just my judgment at the end of the day but I would recommend everyone to ask questions and make up their own minds - don't depend on my word!

    Regards
    Richard
    Celeriter nil crede

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
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    788
    Thanks Richard...so much for quietly picking this one up! Now I'll have to compete with all of SFI!

    Just kidding of course. I agree that "caveat emptor" is a good bit of advice here.

    Rob
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit

  5. #5
    Originally posted by Rob O'Reilly
    Thanks Richard...so much for quietly picking this one up! Now I'll have to compete with all of SFI!

    Just kidding of course. I agree that "caveat emptor" is a good bit of advice here.

    Rob
    Sorry about that, Rob. But if people on the SF now know you're interested, surely they'll do the honourable thing? (i.e. not bid against you). My interest these days is entirely confined to British swords so you have no fear of competition from me.

    Regards
    Richard
    Celeriter nil crede

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    Thanks Richard, we'll see how the chips fall...as they say.

    I've been in love with this pattern ever since I cam across it at Les Invalides in Paris, but have steered clear of them given how rampant the forgeries seem to be. Sadly there is little occasion to actually handle one in Canada.

    I've asked the seller for a closer pic of the hilt and blade tip, so we'll see what happens. I've also asked for the date that should (I would think?) accompany the Klingenthal Manufacture script on the back edge.

    Regards,

    Rob
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit

  7. #7
    Originally posted by Rob O'Reilly
    Thanks Richard, we'll see how the chips fall...as they say.

    I've been in love with this pattern ever since I cam across it at Les Invalides in Paris, but have steered clear of them given how rampant the forgeries seem to be. Sadly there is little occasion to actually handle one in Canada.

    I've asked the seller for a closer pic of the hilt and blade tip, so we'll see what happens. I've also asked for the date that should (I would think?) accompany the Klingenthal Manufacture script on the back edge.

    Regards,

    Rob
    Hello Rob,

    Klingenthal only started dating its blades in April 1810. From the start of the Empire in May 1804 until that time blades would be marked "Manufre Imple Du Klingenthal Coulaux freres". Very early pre-Empire examples are marked "Manufre nale du Klingenthal, Coulaux freres Entrepnrs". My guess is that this sword has the former marking.

    Very best of luck, with that scabbard its a very rare beast.

    Regards
    Richard.
    Celeriter nil crede

  8. #8
    I also meant to say that, if you win the sword, you will be amazed at difference between how the AnXIII scabbard fits the sword as opposed to the normally found (99.9% of examples)1816 scabbard. Frankly the 1816 has always seemed to me to be a bad fit, it often scours the blade and just doesn't feel right. The AnXIII scabbard allows the blade to glide smoothly in and out and fits like a glove.

    I hate it when people on this forum describe swords as "awesome" but you will know for certain if this is a genuine sword the first time you handle it - it will literally send a shiver down your spine.

    Richard
    Celeriter nil crede

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    Thanks for the further information Richard, especially as it relates to the blade markings.

    Rob
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    And now I have to compete with everyone on SFI too...

    hc3

  11. #11
    Hello there....

    "The sword have no visible markings except one on the spine of the blade"

    If the sword is genuine this is quite amazing, because even when the marking on the spine is completely faint, the inspection stamps on the side of the blade usually remain visible.

    The photos are too small to be really useful.

    But I agree I am a suspicious mind ;-)

    Jean

  12. #12
    Richard,

    True that the scabbard has the An XIII look, but don't you feel that it is a bit too narrow? The original scabbard is wide enough to contain the wood inserts in addition to the blade. You know that this is what gives its massive look. It does not seem that it is the case for this scabbard. What do you think?

    Also the ricasso is a bit long, I think. In many example I have seen, the fullers go very close to the hilt. But again I may be completely wrong.

    Better photos would really help.

    Jean

  13. #13
    You could be right Jean, its very difficult to say from the photos provided. I attach below a photo of an AnXIII with original scabbard. The mouthpiece looks a little different but then I have seen small variances of this nature between early French 1st Empire swords. I have to say again that I can see nothing obviously wrong about the sword but that does not mean I guarantee its genuine - I am as likely to be as wrong as the next man. Regarding the stamps, I used to have an early (pre-Empire) AnXI light cavalry that had just one inspection stamp on the hilt and none at all on the blade (just the spine inscription).

    Regards
    Richard
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Celeriter nil crede

  14. #14

    re

    Jean

    I think you're right, this looks not good at all to me. I once sold a orginal one, it's has a very heavy scabbard at witch you could use also to hit a enemy ... It's also difficult to judge with this pictures but i would let it go. It's still (too) cheap... Also someone did try to polish the scabbard with a machine-tool..

    Marc

  15. #15

    re

    pic
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  16. #16
    Thank you for these nice photos which illustrates clearly the points I mentioned (fullers stop, scabbard).

    Now, compare with the photos on e-bay and it is up to you to decide if you take a chance on it.

    Note that the seller is honnest and says he is not sure too.

    Any news about details of marking (month + year or else..?)

  17. #17
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    Jean,

    The seller has yet to respond to my email regarding clearer photos of the hilt, markings and blade tip.

    rob
    Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit

  18. #18
    Originally posted by Jean Binck
    Thank you for these nice photos which illustrates clearly the points I mentioned (fullers stop, scabbard).

    Now, compare with the photos on e-bay and it is up to you to decide if you take a chance on it.

    Note that the seller is honnest and says he is not sure too.

    Any news about details of marking (month + year or else..?)
    Jean,

    Is there a possibility it could be a Romel?

    Richard
    Celeriter nil crede

  19. #19
    Originally posted by Richard Dellar
    Jean,

    Is there a possibility it could be a Romel?

    Richard
    Richard,

    I don't know. Actually, I don't know if Romel copied the manufactory marking, do you?

    Jean

  20. #20

    re

    That's not a Romel.

  21. #21
    Originally posted by Rob O'Reilly
    Jean,

    The seller has yet to respond to my email regarding clearer photos of the hilt, markings and blade tip.

    rob
    Rob,

    It would be interesting to see them.

    Jean

  22. #22

    Re: re

    Originally posted by marc Marbot
    That's not a Romel.
    Marc,

    Do you know if Romel copied the stamps and the marking on his swords?

    Jean

  23. #23

    Re: re

    Originally posted by marc Marbot
    That's not a Romel.
    Marc,

    If you are confident that the ebay sword is a copy but not a Romel, please could you explain your reasoning.

    Richard
    Celeriter nil crede

  24. #24

    re

    Hello.

    Because Althought it were copies Romel did knew exactly witch shape ect they needed, infact it were quality copies and today the have also a certain vallue. I had once a Grendier a chevla of this "collection" And as far as i know he did let his copies made exaclty as his orginals inc. marks ect. You will be amazed to see them since they are really good made.

  25. #25
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    Huddersfield, UK
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    55
    Gentlemen,

    A few thoughts/observations. First, I have also asked for more pictures but not yet had them. Has anyone else and if so would you feel able to post them? The pictures on eBay are I feel not sufficiently detailed to be of much help.

    Secondly, I have made quite a study of this pattern including some of the reproductions. I would, as Richard suggests be very glad if Marc could be more specific about Romel identifying features, but, I am not aware of anyone recently copying the second pattern scabbard. That doesn't mean they haven't, just I have not seen one.

    Thirdly Jean is quite correct that if there is an inscription I am also amazed that in a post 1804 sword there are no poincons in evidence at all.

    Finally, the best test is always handling. The examples I have of this sword in this pattern scabbard are significantly different in feel to the third pattern (often called the 1816) scabbard. The scabbard is much heavier, mine are all wood lined and are very robust. I think if I were bidding (which I am not, at least until I receive more information) I would want a very clear understanding of the sellers return policy.

    Best regards

    Paul
    Paul Wilcock

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