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Thread: Ghisliero's Text

  1. #1
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    Ghisliero's Text

    Gentlemen....Ladies......anyone!

    Every year I make this same request and noone seems to be forthcoming in HELPING ME OUT! Now, maybe with all the renewed interest in Thibault's material, someone might take notice. I sure would like to get a copy, photocopy of that small text written by Ghisliero. ARMA has material on it, as does Anglo's book, I got both ! but I sure would like to see the whole text. My main interest is those wonderful drawings and diagrams. Can anyone help the burned out ole wolf out? Hell, you might get a free book from me if you can deliver.

    My Best
    Dwight

  2. #2
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    it's out there

    Gary Chelak was working on this back in January. Anglo accessed his copies at the Scott collection which is a museum library. Unfortunately it is under construction and dealing with them is very hard. ARMA simply qoutes what information they got from Anglo.

    The copies I know of are shown at these location....

    Copies of Ghisliero
    Exist at – The Scott Collection housed at Kelvingrove Museum of Art – Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
    Probably currently housed at Glasgow Museums resource center
    Glasgow Museums Resource Centre
    200 Woodhead Road
    South Nitshill Industrial Estate
    Glasgow, G53 7NN
    Tel: 0141 276 9300
    • The reference library is available for private research. This service is available to all. Contact 0141 276 9300 for more information


    British Library
    System number 004054917
    Author - personal GHISLIERO, Federico.
    Title Regole di molti cauagliereschi essercitii. Raccolte dal Capitano Federico Ghisliero, ad instruttione dell’ill.mº. Signor Antonino Pio Bonello.
    Publisher/year Parma: Erasmo Viotto, 1587.
    Physical descr. pp. 190. 4º.
    holdings (1) All items
    Humanities collection Holdings (BL) 1570/2850. Request


    Except my understanding from Anglo is that not all of the Ghisliero editions have the illustrations included. He sites having accessed more than one edition and notes the illustrations were added in later by hand. "Two of the surviving copies of Ghisliero's book have complete sets which, though by different hands, are so close to each other and to the written test that they are clearly based upon a master copy ....." 30 pages for illustrations left blank to be filled in plus gaps in the text for inclusion of diagrams.

    Gary reported on the classical fencing mailing list that the text is 190 pages in two sections and is broken ito a section onn theory and a section on practice.

    As far as obtaining copies..... qouting Gary's e-mail to me "The Scott is not generally very helpful with these projects. Truly a
    shame. The cost I was quoted to photocopy the text was $9500.00"

    My inquires into the cost of having digital scans made by the British Liobrary aren't a whole lot better. At medium resolution they want 26 pounds per page. At high resolution 47.50 pounds per page. So at medium resoution about $4,900 pounds - so whatever the exchange rate is these days puts us in the ballpark of what Gary was told.

    Matt Easton gave me contact info for one Tobias Capwell over at the Scott Collection but the man ignored all my e-mails and never replied.

    Hope that helps.... If you obtain a copy I sure would like to see it. I have a translator (John Michael Greer) primed and ready to go.

    Jeff Richardson
    Academia Duellatoria
    Last edited by Jeff Richardson; 04-05-2006 at 09:53 AM.

  3. #3
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    Thumbs up Thanks

    Jeff. "You made my day, partner!" Thank you so very much. Least I know who to start putting pressure on. When you look at those copy prices, you really wonder why they don't want anyone to see them. Rediculous! Hell, I thought it was the English the Scots had issues with not us. Has anyone tried 'leavering' them through the diplomatic channels? Oh well again I sincerily appreciate the help.
    Best
    Dwight

  4. #4
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    If you land a copy - share buddy, share!!!!
    I've been on the trail for awhile. Gary beat me to it because apparently he gets to travel. The BL source I found on my own. It didn't show up on their online catalogue a few years ago.

  5. #5
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    Thumbs up Text.

    Jeff:

    Some of the people I used to know within the system are retired like me....so I can't say that I will be anymore effective than anyone else. We'll see and should I get lucky, you can bet I will share with everybody.

    Best
    Dwight

  6. #6
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    The BL has some of their historical documents held in a database - theis is how I got hold of the Page manual.

    I'll give them a ring and see what they say. If it is held in a database then I should be able to get print-out and either scan it or mail it on...
    James
    Modern Bartitsu

    "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
    - H. L. Mencken

  7. #7
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    Right, I've had a chat with the ever helpful BL and, if I go in, they can do a paper copy for me for £84.

    I'd be willing to do this and mail copies on (paper or scans) - Dwight is this worth trading for one of your books?

    Let me know and I'll put the order in. It should take around 30 days to get to me and a few more to send on to folks in the US.
    James
    Modern Bartitsu

    "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
    - H. L. Mencken

  8. #8
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    Talking Mr. G

    James: How about one of each: Bowie & Big Knife Fighting, Advanced Bowie Techniques, and The Fighting Tomahawk. Just email me your address to d-mclemore@worldnet.att.net and I'll get one off to you immediately and the other two soon as I get with Paladin Press. Yep! I'll sign'em . Thanks so much.

    Best
    Dwight

  9. #9
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    Thumbs up

    Glad James is helping you out
    It's a shame the BL charge so much for copies - many of the works have already been copied so all they need to do is just reel off a copy of the copy... But I understand they have to earn money somehow.
    They're cool about viewing stuff though - I've thumbed through their copies of Marozzo and various other stuff as if they were printed yesterday! I was of course super careful, but I was quite surprised to just be handed them.

    Matt

  10. #10
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    Scans!!!

    Hey - I would love to have scans of a high enough quality I can print them off on this end and still read stuff.

    I just ordered microfich a couple days ago - however getting the ability around here to scan it or make copies of it is a bit of a chore. (havn't gotten any kind of confirmation from them as yet though on the microfich.)

    Paper copies tend to get munched and then I have to replace them.

    Jeff Richardson
    Academia Duellatoria

  11. #11
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    Right then chaps. I'll get these prints ASAP. Dwight, I'll give you my address once I've got confirmation.
    James
    Modern Bartitsu

    "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
    - H. L. Mencken

  12. #12
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    Thumbs up Thanks

    Again, thank you James. I look forward to hearing from you soon.
    Best
    Dwight

  13. #13
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    hmm,,,,,

    Excellant.....

    Just curious - Am I the first person to realize the BL had logged a copy in their catalogue? I know it is fairly recent listing to the online catalogue as I looked for it on several occasions after Anglo's book came out. So with in the last couple of years anyhow.


    Jeff

  14. #14
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    Thumbs up Coordination & Planning

    I think what just happened on this thread is a something us military types used to call "Coordination & Planning". It will be interesting to see the results. It's a shame that we in the WMA community don't do more of this. Lord knows what could be achieved. I still have the copies of the Foire and other texts that Greg Mele & Pete Kautz sent me so many years ago. They are faded, worn, and tattered but what they represent to me is the foundation for my migration theory on fighting techniques to this continent. To me they are as valuable as an original and now with my pencil notes all over them they become uniquely part of me.

    Best
    Dwight

  15. #15
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    I should get the documents from the BL within 30 days - apparently they have to send the text to Yorkshire to be copied and then post it on to me...

    I'll mail out scans and hard copies as soon as I get the doc.

    If there are other texts we can do this for I'm happy to help
    James
    Modern Bartitsu

    "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
    - H. L. Mencken

  16. #16
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    Oh Boy !

    You've done more than enough my friend. Again soon as I get the address, the books will be on the way.

    Best
    Dwight

  17. #17
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    more references

    Mmmm.. I'll keep it in mind James


    I have also found the fllowing reference

    http://edit16.iccu.sbn.it/scripts/ic...?fn=10&i=20863
    Ghislieri, Federico
    Titolo: Regole di molti cauagliereschi esercitii. Raccolte dal capitano Federico Ghisliero.
    Pubblicazione: In Parma : appresso Erasmo Viotto, 1587.
    Descrizione fisica: [8], 190 p. ; 4°
    Impronta: nere e'r- o,r- file (7) 1587 (A)

    Lingua: Italiano
    Paese: Italia
    Autori: 1.Ghislieri, Federico <ca. 1550-1619>

    Editori: 1.Viotti, Erasmo

    Fonti: PAMON
    Stato: Minimo
    Identificativo: CNCE 20863
    Localizzazioni: BO0098 * Biblioteca universitaria - Bologna
    NA0079 Biblioteca nazionale Vittorio Emanuele III - Napoli
    PR0072 Biblioteca Palatina - Parma
    PR0071 Biblioteca Palatina. Sezione musicale - Parma
    TO0263 Biblioteca Reale - Torino

    Somehow I think there are maybe more copies out there than people realize.

    Jeff

  18. #18
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    Overview of what's in Ghisliero's text

    Thanks Jeff for emailing me about this thread - since this site's blocked at work, time here is quite limited.

    James - thanks for arranging this - very cool.

    Each trip to London I make a stop at the BL to reread, transcribe/translate a little more of this text. Any book that has 108 pages of 'what you need to learn before you handle a sword' is tops. On the downside, the copy I've seen there has no illustrations. Maybe one of the ones in Italy?

    Here's what's inside:
    Raccolte Capitano Federico Ghisliero, ad instruttione dell’ Ill.mo Signore Antonino Pio Bonello.

    In Parma. Appresso Erasmo Viotto. 1587.
    Con licenza de’ Superiori

    To the illustrious Sig. Antonio Pio Bonello, Figliuolo dell'Eccelletissimo Signor Girolamo Bonello, Marchese di Cassano.

    Della Theorica
    - describes the body as devided into the 4 humors: melancolia, flemma, sangue, colera (p2)
    - talks about the body’s proportions (p14)
    - mentions Aristotle & tempo (p21/2)
    - talks about the circle & geometry in fighting (p41)
    - and tons more cool stuff not so nicely divided as the latter half
    Della Prattica (p109)
    - Avertimenti di spada, et pugnale. (p133)
    - Avertimenti di spada sola (p136)
    - Trattato di spada et cappa (p137)
    - Trattato del Brocchiero (p144)
    - Trattato contra un mancino (p151)
    - Abbattimento di Barriera (p153)
    - Trattato dello Stocco (p164)
    - Trattato della Folla (p170)
    - Trattato d’un combattente a piedi contra uno a cavallo (p172)
    - Trattato d’uno a cavallo, che con la spada combatte contra un’altro pure á Cavallo (p176)
    - Il Fine (p190)
    Gary Chelak
    TSD - SoCal

  19. #19
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    Gary et al--

    The copy in Bologna has illustrations. They have been kind enough to place them online (but not the text beyond page 1).

    http://www.librit.unibo.it/servlet/U...ml?idautore=22

    Click on the title, and there you are.

    Jherek
    "Et se alcuno dalla natura fuse adottato dalla presteza delle mani o di ingegno, custui non deve imperò restare de cercare d'acresere e gomentar ogni volta la sua virtù con diletarsi di imprendere la ingegnosa arte del schremire e, non volerse inganare lui medesimo con persuadersi de sapere asai perché lo inganatore rimane spesse volte ai piedi dello inganato superato."
    --Manoscritto Classense 345

  20. #20
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    images

    That's great - thanks Jherek!

    Notated by page number too - very happy. I'll be spending a little time matching these up to the pages I've translated & re-reading

    Gary.
    Gary Chelak
    TSD - SoCal

  21. #21
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    Result - hopefully we can match up the BL copy and the images from this.
    James
    Modern Bartitsu

    "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
    - H. L. Mencken

  22. #22
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    Smile Oh Boy!

    Thank you so very much...THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH! Just look at those drawings ! You can even see the color. Looks like a combination of Pen & Bruch prehaps in Sepia. Really great to be able to see the shading so clear. Can't wait to get the text to this. Boy, my day is made. God bless that Museum in Bologna, and you guys as well. Should you need my assistance, just call.

    Best
    Dwight

  23. #23
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    Gary

    Please keep me posted on the translation progress.
    Best
    Dwight

  24. #24
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    Ahhh.... cooperation is a wonderful thing.

  25. #25
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    The courier from the BL has just arrived and I've finally got a copy in my hands

    I'm literally about to go out the door for a week long business trip so I'll be able to mail off paper copies this week but electronic versions will need to wait until next weekend.

    Javier- can you PM me your addresses?

    I have addresses for Gary Chelak & Jeff Richardson.
    James
    Modern Bartitsu

    "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
    - H. L. Mencken

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