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Thread: double edged Katana

  1. #1

    double edged Katana

    Ive had a look through the Search facility which while comprehensive, wasn't of much use...

    ..I'm after some information as to the historical accuracy to double edged katana, I mostly think they are just fantasy swords, but would like someone with more knowledge to confirm/correct this opinion.


    I don't think they are but I have to have my curiosity satisfied. Are they historically accurate? Were they used? If so where and by whom?

    this is the kind of thing I am talking about:
    http://www.trueswords.com/images/pro...S88DEC_540.jpg
    Historic fencer and sword collector.

  2. #2
    I just found this:

    http://www.swordsofkorea.com/sword7.htm

    What can people tell me about this style of sword? Clearly it has some historical accuracy, but there is very little detail about this style of sword.
    Historic fencer and sword collector.

  3. #3
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    that one is not double edged. The cut-away makes the spine (mune) narrow, but that is a normal feature in some Japanese swords, notably those made from naginata or in that style. Early Japanese swords were all double edged, and straight, but they were not katana. There is a class of katana-like swords that have a 'false edge' but I don't know what it is called.

    Dave
    Dave Drawdy
    "the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

  4. #4
    Thanks Dave, So, that sword on the Korean Swords Website isn't double edged? It looks it from an untrained eye...What's the difference??

    What can you tell my about that style of sword then? There is a difference between the Cold Steel one and the one from Korean swords, but I don't know much about double bladed swords of this nature.

    That (the korean swords) website seems to want to decribe it as Katana as they say the maker moved to japan to continue making them. Any other information would be appreciated.
    Historic fencer and sword collector.

  5. #5
    Glen Mergnes

  6. #6
    Thanks Glen, Great stuff.
    Historic fencer and sword collector.

  7. #7
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    The blade style shown in your first photo is Kissaki Moroha-Zukuri. The style was first seen in the Nara perod (708-781). This style is sometimes reffered to as Kogarasu-maru, after a famous sword of the Heike Family from the Heian period. It was called Kogarasu or Little Crow, and still resides in the Japanese Imperial collection.

    The sword in the second photo is either Kanmuri-otoshi-zukuri or Unokubi-zukuri.
    The photos do not show the kissaki well enough for me to make the determination.

    UNOKUBI Literally means, "Cormorant's Neck". It is similar to Kanmuri-otoshi, except that only the middle part of the shinogi-ji is scalloped or slanted, while the kissaki and lower part are normal. There may or may not be a yokote.

  8. #8
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    deleted.............
    Last edited by Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini; 12-09-2006 at 09:24 AM.
    Please forgive my english.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamlin McPherson View Post
    That (the korean swords) website seems to want to decribe it as Katana as they say the maker moved to japan to continue making them. Any other information would be appreciated.
    It is debated if Rai Kuniyuki was from Korea, either a japanese born in Korea and returned to Japan or of full korean
    origins. A delicate matter.

    EDIT TO ADD :

    From the Fujishiro (the book quoted in the link) :

    quote...

    KUNIYUKI RAI [SHďGEN 1207 YAMASHIRO] KOTď SAIJďSAKU
    He is the founder of the Rai Ha, is the son of Kuniyoshi, is called Raitar˘, and is the father of Raimagotar˘ Kunitoshi. He is
    said to have signed in the beginning with the two kanji of Kuniyuki, and to have later inscribed the three kanji of Rai Kuniyuki,
    but I have not seen this three kanji signature. Along with Magotar˘ Kunitoshi, he made equipment to fend off the foreign
    invasions of Bun'ei and K˘an, and it can be imagined that they were diligent in making mostly swords. He made many tachi
    with a wide body and hamon of choji, ko-choji, and ˘-choji with deep nioi, and b˘shi of ko-midarekomi.
    Signature: KUNIYUKI
    It is said that the father of Kuniyuki was a man of Korea, that he became naturalized and was called Kuniyoshi, but this is not


    clear from his works. It also says in the Kanchiin Hon, "His forefather kaji came from Korea, and had the G˘ of Raikuni".
    A
    Rai linealogy chart is shown below. (Kanemaru and Tsurakage are mistaken for names on tachi of Kuniyuki)
    .
    The chart reads as follows, reading the columns top to bottom, beginning with the right hand column.


    1. KUNIYOSHI, KUNIYUKI, KUNITOSHI, KUNIMITSU
    2. KANEMARU, KUNIMATSU
    3. TSURAKAGE, DAUGHTERS, KUNITSUGU RAI HYďEINOJď

    ...unquote.


    As per the Rai school here you go :

    Scroll down a little in the Yamashiro and you'll find the Rai school :

    http://www.sho-shin.com/contents.htm

    or :

    http://www.sho-shin.com/rai1.htm

    http://www.sho-shin.com/rai2.htm

    http://www.sho-shin.com/rai2a.htm

    http://www.sho-shin.com/rai3.htm

    http://www.sho-shin.com/rai3a.htm

    http://www.sho-shin.com/rai4a.htm
    Last edited by Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini; 12-09-2006 at 10:34 AM.
    Please forgive my english.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamlin McPherson View Post
    That (the korean swords) website seems to want to decribe it as Katana as they say the maker moved to japan to continue making them. Any other information would be appreciated.
    Other info (Thanks to Franco from NihonTo Message board.) :

    quote...

    According to old texts like the Koto Meijin Taizen, the founder of the Rai School, Kuniyoshi, is said to have been a immigrant from Korai (Korea). ........... . The character Rai ( ) means to "come" and perhaps this may have been the reason for the use of the character of the founder since he came from the Korean Peninsula. Yamanka Newsletters Revised vol. 1 pg 42 published by NCJSC http://www.ncjsc.org/pubs_4_sale.htm

    ... unquote.
    Please forgive my english.

  11. #11
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    Hey Tamlin. The picture that you posted is kissaki moroha-zukuri as previously stated. The full double edge is called moroha-zukuri. Moroha-zukuri is sometimes used in tanto and rarely in wakizashi. Here is a thread with moroha waki http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ghlight=moroha. More information on moroha-zukuri http://swordforum.com/sfu/japanese/moroha-zukuri.html.
    Jussi Ekholm

  12. #12
    further questions - does this style of sword have a Hamon? In all the pictures I have seen of this style of sword, there seems to be no hamon on the blade..

    A little help please...
    Historic fencer and sword collector.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamlin McPherson View Post
    further questions - does this style of sword have a Hamon? In all the pictures I have seen of this style of sword, there seems to be no hamon on the blade..

    A little help please...

    Hi Tamlin.

    All the swords quoted here have hamon. The false edge of some styles quoted here haven't, but the sharp edges are all with an hamon.
    Please forgive my english.

  14. #14
    ignore me - solved - its a sugaha style.
    Historic fencer and sword collector.

  15. #15
    Beyond cold steel, does anyone know anyone who makes these/retails them?
    Historic fencer and sword collector.

  16. #16
    would anyone consider making one of these blades as a comission?
    Historic fencer and sword collector.

  17. #17
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    Hi Tamlin and all,

    How goes your search? Although you didn't really say, are you after one to own or just to research the subject more?

    Darryl Guertin has a kogarsu zukuri on his website, just go to http://www.dguertin.com and click on Japanese Swords/Amakuni

    The site hasn't been updates since 2005 and it is probably worth contacting the guy to see if he can help you or not.

    Kind Regards
    Matt Mitchell

  18. #18
    Thanks matt, i'll take a look at that site.

    I am wanting one to own, but i really enjoy reserching a blade's history before I have one made.

    Considering the metric tonnes of skilled swordsmiths on here I am surprised no one has made one previously.
    Historic fencer and sword collector.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamlin McPherson View Post
    Considering the metric tonnes of skilled swordsmiths on here I am surprised no one has made one previously.
    I'm not sure if none of them have ever made a Kogarasu-style sword but
    I'm sure that every and each of them can make it on your order.

    As per historical researches, you've choosen a style that have only a couple or three original examples still alive.
    Later reproductions exist, of course.
    Last edited by Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini; 01-06-2007 at 03:26 AM.
    Please forgive my english.

  20. #20

    shameless plug

    We have one too.

    A second version is coming more accurate to the original Little Crow as well.

  21. #21
    Hi Loren, I did see that blade and was deeply impressed by the quality:

    http://www.oniforge.com/3301.html

    I presume it wouldn't be too difficult if I wanted to make some aesthetic changes (colour of Tsuka-ito, maybe the length of the tsuka, maybe some decorative changes to the Saya to match it, nothing too difficult, are there any options regarding changing the Tsuba/Menuki? ) I really like the way it looks (and don't really object to a purchase as it is, but there's nothing like that personal touch to make it unique), I just wonder what my options are?


    I was looking at the one you have on Ebay as well, nice, but shame its a second..What happened to it?
    Last edited by Tamlin McPherson; 01-06-2007 at 08:17 AM.
    Historic fencer and sword collector.

  22. #22
    Ah yes all the usual stuff is a custom option plus our sister shop in Portland can do anything else you had in mind in terms of ornamentation. Feel free to email me to discuss it further. The ebay one had some ito-maki issues if memory serves.
    Last edited by Loren Graves; 01-06-2007 at 01:22 PM.

  23. #23
    Some pics for comparison... this is of the standard version which is larger than the Kogarasu-maru

    www.oniforge.com/images/onicompare3.gif
    www.oniforge.com/images/koga1.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  24. #24
    I have one for sale in the classifieds, in case anyone is interested...

    http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=74998
    Glen Mergnes

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