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Thread: Zhi. Zhang sword Opinions!

  1. #101
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    Uh, it is goin high here.
    Some words:
    I have ordered 5 more swords from Zhang.
    Because, the price is good, quality is good.
    I am expecting a very good one and a similar, and three cheap one.
    Zhang himself said me the the hamon, for example my first posted swords"TIger", is later made on the sword because for that price there can not be clay temperred Hamon.
    This is understandable.
    we will maybe change some Koshirae for beter looking, but the blades are okay.
    I saw Oniforge, Paul Chen, some others Name I forget.
    Its all the same for this Pricelevel.
    over 3000 US $ it starts japanese Swords on the Level you can exept, but 6000 bucks you need really for a good japanese sword.
    thats it.
    Soon I post more pictures.
    Don't fight
    Eck

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Eck Hank View Post
    I saw Oniforge, Paul Chen, some others Name I forget.
    Its all the same for this Pricelevel.
    over 3000 US $ it starts japanese Swords on the Level you can exept, but 6000 bucks you need really for a good japanese sword.
    ...nevermind. I'll let someone else disagree with you.
    "It is my feeling that to make a good sword, one must make a weapon first, and art second. But if it is really "right", it is both things at once, and in equal measure." -- Howard Clark

    "I cannot compensate for improper use of a sword. Nothing is bullet proof and idiots prove on a regular basis that nothing is idiot-proof -- they're just too creative." -- Keith Larman

  3. #103
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    FIVE?!

    Holy crap, you must've really liked your first one.. or did you already get several the first time around? Personally I would've bought fewer and of higher quality (folded one with hand made koshirae) but that's just me.. Remember to post a ton of pics when you get those!!

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo Qvintus View Post
    I'm unfamiliar with KC Bingo Mihara, is the similarity a good thing? What type of zhi-blade do you have? Regarding the polish, did you order your zhi-blade with a mirror finish or was it "12-stage traditionally hand polished" (or whatever)? Further, would your zhi-blade and those with similar construction look better with some treatment or a new polish? If so, is such a treatment hard and/or expensive to do / have done?

    Hi Timo,

    The KC (Kris Cutlery) Bingo's are a decent raw blade for the money and can certainly handle a bit of abuse. A couple of friends have bought and used Bingo's for tameshigiri and had no problems at all.

    With regard to the Zhi type / model I don't honestly know and will have to ask my eldest daughter, because she bought for me. I believe the state of polish it was in would be classed as a mirror polish, because the blade had been given a far too brilliant finish which made it look as though it were mad from stainless steel. Much the reason behind their not looking too good in the pic's on Zhi's site, but a ferric chloride etch exposed a reasonably active hamon and I thought I'd see just how it could turn out if the polish were worked differently.

    I've basically done a hybrid polish (Using papers and pastes) on the blade in question and took it back from a mirror polish by using 1200 grit emery (Wet & dry) paper and re-dressed it's lines. This was followed by oxidising the blade with nugui and then re-touching the hamon in order to highlight blade activity. The existing tsuka and were fine, but the hardware was basically very cheaply made zinc alloy castings, which my wife is presently replacing with some of her own work.

    If you're unsure how to go about carrying out a polish I'd recommend you either send it out (Too expensive on blades of this level) or read and learn as much as you can on the topic before you even lift a finger. Once you feel ready to try carrying out a polish buy a reasonable billet / flat bar of steel and work on that. Only move onto a blade polish once you've mastered the use of paper / stones and pastes.

    A long winded approach? Maybe, but take and I'll virtually guarantee it'll help save the heartache of ruining a blade through being unfamiliar with technique and materials
    Careful thought, consideration & communication is well worth the effort and end result.

  5. #105
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    Hi,
    there is no agree or disagree. Just i solution we found out.
    I don't say better or worse than...that or this.
    Just we decide to buy this time from Zhang.
    Maybe next year I have the chance to go to China again, and I will visit Zhangs factory, and others.
    Maybe I will change my mind.
    So, cheers, Eck

  6. #106
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    upgrades and fixer uppers

    Now theres a niche - these may fit for me .

    A $200 zhi sword - forged and differentialy heat treated -
    another $200 - $ 250 on fittings .

    a quick n dirty hybrid polish with grit paper , nugui and a rub up with the hazuya stone on the hamon ( if only it was that easy )

    see there I go again - slipping into bad habits .

    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hagen View Post
    I agree on both points. If Zhang can make a sword that looks like that, then why not post a photo on one that looks like that that he has made.

    It would be like watching a commercial for a Yugo, and seeing a Porsche. Then when asking the sales man at the Yugo dealership about the images in the commercial the response is "We don't actually make cars like that, but we have talented engineers. We could make it."

    As for the sword, I ordered a $500 custom Zhang. I also have a Kiyomaro Katana on order from oni-forge. I'll be able to see if it's worth it when it shows up.
    Please show when them arrive...
    Eck

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hagen View Post
    Yup, those look like stolen pictures.



    Is there any possible chance that Huanuo and Zhang are the same forge? That would be the only possibly way that this would be acceptable in any sense of the word.





    I donno what the polish is exactly, I only know that they have 3 types of polish.

    el'cheapo: They call it 8 stage? My guess would be sandpaper... Maybe a grinder? This is what they put on their $80 swords.
    12-step: No idea what the steps are. It's standard on the "higher end" Zhangs. Probably a new marketing catch-phrase.
    Super-New-Polish: (donno the official name) It costs $800 more. For $800 I could almost have F. Lohman polish it and I doubt that they do as good of a job. I would have to see some awesome closeups of blades, recieved and posted here by customers before I would buy into this.

    Does that mean, Zhang uses pictures from other swordsmiths?
    Can you tell me where to find this pics.
    Eck

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo Qvintus View Post
    Sorry to return to an old topic, but I wanted to clear something here; there are no vertical scratches on the blade, what was shown in the pics is my doing (trying to remove the factory oil/grease without a maintenance kit).. Uchiko powder and sword oil treatment finally got the blade clean, which in turn was my mistake to begin with, I actually asked to use extra protection for the blade b/c of the humidity and temperature variations..

    The polish is low-end, though, as I didn't want to spend too much money on this one. Zhang has reassured me that the blade is differentially hardened, but not clay tempered (costs ~$100 extra) as I asked. Thus the nature of the hamon.

    And most importantly, it is exactly what I expected.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joo-Hwan Lee View Post
    Differentially hardened.


    But not clay tempered.


    Gotcha.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Samija View Post
    I am mighty confused now...
    So, it is an artificial hamon after all? As I understand it, there is no hamon possible if there was no clay coating (someone please correct me if I am wrong, please...).
    Also, clay is used in HARDENING process, not in the tempering process, to my knowledge (small as it is...)...
    Here's how I see it, as a laymen...
    Hardening is achieved by rapid cooling in water or oil (or some other medium) thus hardening the steel...
    Tempering is heating the steel at some lower temperature for some time, thus lowering the hardness some and at the same time lowering the stress in the steel from forging etc...
    So, it is possible, in different ways, to differentially harden a blade, even without clay...
    It is also possible to differentially temper the blade, after uniformly hardening the blade, and thus achieving harder edge, and softer back, and clay doesn't play any part in tempering...
    So, here I am confused as to what was done to that Zhang sword...
    Also, is it possible to have a hamon if the blade was just edge-hardened by dipping just the edge in a cooling medium like water, or in any other way without the clay coating...?
    So, if someone can set me straight on that, I would be grateful.
    Also, Timo, did you try to dissassemble your sword and polish the hamon a little under the habaki, to see if it's real or not...
    Now, there was a thread about Timo's Zhi/Zang steel iaito in the Begg. forum that died out, and I didn't get a proper reply, and since this is such a live thread, I'm going to steal it a little...
    So, what's up with this heat threatment...? Timo, did you try to polish under the habaki...? And how can it be 'differentially hardened, but not clay tempered.'...?
    Anyone? Help me learn, and set me straight on this one, please...
    Thnx.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joo-Hwan Lee View Post
    No need to feel guilty, Mick. I also outed the Huanuo pictures taken from www.bugu.co.uk

    Skip says that those images and others have been removed. This is good news for everyone. Now we can move on.


    I guess it's all my fault...as I outed all the pics to begin with...

    It needed to be done.

    I agree Mick... I have no qualms about a good value Katana for a great price... Remember, I'm the original Masahiro Bamboo guy.

    Remember all the stuffings I took for that?The thread had to be closed.

    THe biggest issue I have is all the threads I've seen with pictures of second rate katana with lousy fittings and horrible maki...and the people just talk it up...and nobody really says what needs to be said about them...

    They look like decent swords for $100 to $150.

    Instead though we have people paying $500 - $1000 for "custom " swords from Zhi.This may not have happened if the earlier threads hadn't run their course with nothing but back patting among Zhi owners.

    Glen C is the only one I remember actually saying what should have been said...

    Now, if people get these swords and theyre worth the money ....great. The pictures do not present themselves as well as that to me.

    The problem for everyone is if many people continue buying these substandard swords for $500(if they are substandard) it shrinks the market for the decent value $500 swords , like Oni , Dynasty and Hanwei.

    As the market shrinks on these swords we will find either higher prices, or shoddier offerings.

    That's the concern I have with people paying $500 - $1000 or even $2399 for a $150 sword , and then congratulating each other for it.

    Now, I welcome the comparison of Mr. Hagens Kiyomaro vs. an Idenically priced Zhi Sword.

    Here we will get some direct comparison as to whether they are value for the money.

    My fingers are crossed....I hope they are.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joo-Hwan Lee View Post
    Also consider this mumei Nihonto from the Muromachi period, nagasa 28.15'' which comparatively costs "only" $2565 (it's pretty cheap for a well-preserved antique). A mere difference in price of $165 from the Zhang.

    http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/06300.html

    Needs to be remounted and maybe a fresh "touch-up" polish~ But what the hey.

    A Koto "Sadakiyo": http://yakiba.com/kat_mumei2.htm also "only" $2199. $200 cheaper than the Zhang.

    Pretty healthy blade with good amount of boshi. And the tsuba is particularly pretty, I think.

    Such examples abound, but my point is made. I agree with MK. No comparison.
    I counted, a sword from James Raw top level will cost about:
    16x78 US$ = 1248 US$
    +
    100 US$ Posting
    thats 1348 Dollars, some specials for example more lengh
    could be 1500 US Dollars.
    This is a reasonable price for this pretty sword.
    I didn't know about JAmes Raw, but I will think.
    Would be nice to find better pictures.
    Thanks,
    Eck

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck Hank View Post
    Uh, it is goin high here.
    Some words:
    I have ordered 5 more swords from Zhang.
    Because, the price is good, quality is good.
    I am expecting a very good one and a similar, and three cheap one.
    Zhang himself said me the the hamon, for example my first posted swords"TIger", is later made on the sword because for that price there can not be clay temperred Hamon.
    This is understandable.
    we will maybe change some Koshirae for beter looking, but the blades are okay.
    I saw Oniforge, Paul Chen, some others Name I forget.
    Its all the same for this Pricelevel.
    over 3000 US $ it starts japanese Swords on the Level you can exept, but 6000 bucks you need really for a good japanese sword.
    thats it.
    Soon I post more pictures.
    Don't fight
    Eck
    Hi Eck,

    I certainly hope you enjoy your rapidly growing collection, but the comparison between Zhi's and other manufacturer's blades all depends upon the standard of blade you're buying into.

    If you're lucky you can find Japanese made blades very reasonably priced and below £1k, but they tend to be wartime relics and not genuine Nihonto. I managed to obtain a couple of nicely made Nihonto for below £1.5k last year and another this year via a former work colleague in Japan, but they're rare bargains and sourced privately. Entry level Nihonto (Newly made) can be had for as low as £800 and as high as you can afford, but buying the new Porsche would have to wait yet another year.

    ---------

    In attempting to quantify how different people approach the topic of aquiring Japanese / Japanese styled blades, there are far too many ways and methods of approach. Many simply have a desire to buy into the idea of having a Japanese styled blade, whilst others prefer to strictly adhere to the aim of aquiring high quality Nihonto (Japanese swords made using traditional methods, materials, made under license and from Japan). There are so many levels from which one can approach the shared interest in swords from Japan and other cultures, but it's up to the indivdual to determine what he / she truly prefers to buy / can afford at any given time.

    Is something wrong because it doesn't fit into the norm, or is it simply a case of traditional rigidness versus casual flexibility during the selection of a sword? To be perfectly frank I'm all for freedom of choice and choose gentle persuasion (By recommending suitable reading matter (Does a newbie necessarily want to have to purchase expensive literature or swords?), formal training and safety first) over forceful admonishment any day.

    One of my brothers solely collects wallhangers. His doesn't coincide with my approach, but I choose not to preach or debate the pro's and con's concerning my preferences over his.

    If something's crap, flawed, or poorly made, explain (In detail) why. An abrupt comment akin to "It's crap, don't buy it" simply doesn't wash, whilst using an approach like "They're not very well made, because ........" will garner a person's interest and encourage him / her to listen, while you explain the benefits behind buying a better example. Otherwise any attempt at providing sound advice to a beginner simply sounds like ranting, nay saying, or high handedness and creates a poor atmosphere whilst offending others.
    Careful thought, consideration & communication is well worth the effort and end result.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Stonebridge View Post
    If you're unsure how to go about carrying out a polish I'd recommend you either send it out (Too expensive on blades of this level) or read and learn as much as you can on the topic before you even lift a finger. Once you feel ready to try carrying out a polish buy a reasonable billet / flat bar of steel and work on that. Only move onto a blade polish once you've mastered the use of paper / stones and pastes.

    A long winded approach? Maybe, but take and I'll virtually guarantee it'll help save the heartache of ruining a blade through being unfamiliar with technique and materials
    Have you finished your re-polish? If so could you post pictures?

    If you've visited Beginners forum lately you may have noticed that I have a f'd up cheap-o chinatana (of which the tsukamaki just became loose, incidentally) that I'm planning to use as target practice. I have pretty good access to steel bars though, since my father owns a steel workshop.. If you'd post your two cents on that thread I'd be grateful..

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck Hank View Post
    I counted, a sword from James Raw top level will cost about:
    16x78 US$ = 1248 US$
    +
    100 US$ Posting
    thats 1348 Dollars, some specials for example more lengh
    could be 1500 US Dollars.
    This is a reasonable price for this pretty sword.
    I didn't know about JAmes Raw, but I will think.
    Would be nice to find better pictures.
    Thanks,
    Eck


    Exactly... Raw, Sorrells...these guys are making obtainable blades that are light years ahead of anything coming out of mass production forges in China...for a similar price..

    For the $2399 you spend on that Zhi sword I posted with the crappy Koshirae you could get a custom forged Rawblade and have it mounted by Fred Lohman.

  15. #115
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    M.K is right shocker

    Check out your headline M.K - its not shocking really

    yeah I remember the uproar your masahiro threads caused last year - but they were in the context of you being able to compare your masahiro's to proven swords like your PC wind and thunder -

    I think what Joo's reffering to and I do not mean any posters in this thread by the way - is when absolute begginners pick up a $150 sword and decide then and there - " this is the real deal , a real sword"

    Sean did Zhi a very favourable review - but Sean can review a sword without all the hystrionics some of us have when we first start out on the path of the sword due to his experience and ability to compare and reference certain points

    - I am going to withhold Judgement until I see a review of one of the $1500
    and above high end Zhi swords , purely out of curiosity and concern for the state of the current market .

    - Thhe closest I hope ever to get to a chinese production katana again is via Bugei and hanwei and thats if I cannott find a gendaito that doesnt need extensive restoration .

    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Stonebridge View Post
    Hi Eck,

    I certainly hope you enjoy your rapidly growing collection, but the comparison between Zhi's and other manufacturer's blades all depends upon the standard of blade you're buying into.

    If you're lucky you can find Japanese made blades very reasonably priced and below £1k, but they tend to be wartime relics and not genuine Nihonto. I managed to obtain a couple of nicely made Nihonto for below £1.5k last year and another this year via a former work colleague in Japan, but they're rare bargains and sourced privately. Entry level Nihonto (Newly made) can be had for as low as £800 and as high as you can afford, but buying the new Porsche would have to wait yet another year.

    ---------

    In attempting to quantify how different people approach the topic of aquiring Japanese / Japanese styled blades, there are far too many ways and methods of approach. Many simply have a desire to buy into the idea of having a Japanese styled blade, whilst others prefer to strictly adhere to the aim of aquiring high quality Nihonto (Japanese swords made using traditional methods, materials, made under license and from Japan). There are so many levels from which one can approach the shared interest in swords from Japan and other cultures, but it's up to the indivdual to determine what he / she truly prefers to buy / can afford at any given time.

    Is something wrong because it doesn't fit into the norm, or is it simply a case of traditional rigidness versus casual flexibility during the selection of a sword? To be perfectly frank I'm all for freedom of choice and choose gentle persuasion (By recommending suitable reading matter (Does a newbie necessarily want to have to purchase expensive literature or swords?), formal training and safety first) over forceful admonishment any day.

    One of my brothers solely collects wallhangers. His doesn't coincide with my approach, but I choose not to preach or debate the pro's and con's concerning my preferences over his.

    If something's crap, flawed, or poorly made, explain (In detail) why. An abrupt comment akin to "It's crap, don't buy it" simply doesn't wash, whilst using an approach like "They're not very well made, because ........" will garner a person's interest and encourage him / her to listen, while you explain the benefits behind buying a better example. Otherwise any attempt at providing sound advice to a beginner simply sounds like ranting, nay saying, or high handedness and creates a poor atmosphere whilst offending others.
    Hi Sean,
    yes, Porsche is nice, but not reasonable.
    This swords are for people who practise, and cannot spend much money.
    I kept only two.

    And,,, at least are my friends not so interested for more expensive swords.
    I do hope I did not embarasse somebody...
    I thought about Gunto, but I didn't like. And an old sword I would not test for cutting.
    I liked to start and i did. I will learn more and buy what I will like, for Exercising, looking or cutting.
    Be sure, I listen very carefully to the advices are given here.
    Regards, Eck

  17. #117
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    Question $500-1000 range?

    Quote Originally Posted by M.K. Ridgeway View Post
    Remember, I'm the original Masahiro Bamboo guy.
    You should add that sentence to your sig, mate..

    Quote Originally Posted by M.K. Ridgeway View Post
    THe biggest issue I have is all the threads I've seen with pictures of second rate katana with lousy fittings and horrible maki...and the people just talk it up...and nobody really says what needs to be said about them...

    They look like decent swords for $100 to $150.

    Instead though we have people paying $500 - $1000 for "custom " swords from Zhi.This may not have happened if the earlier threads hadn't run their course with nothing but back patting among Zhi owners.

    *SNIP*

    Now, if people get these swords and theyre worth the money ....great. The pictures do not present themselves as well as that to me.
    Umm.. how many of those swords have been ~$500 range? I thought most of them were low-end to mid-range ones (with cheap cast alloy koshirae and cotton ito).. I may be wrong though. My "custom" iaito cost me $320, which includes $100 worth extras and shipping. To me that is helluva value for my money. BTW, for reference, what did you think of my sword; was that "second rate katana with lousy fittings and horrible maki" too? I'd honestly like to know..

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Samija View Post
    Now, there was a thread about Timo's Zhi/Zang steel iaito in the Begg. forum that died out, and I didn't get a proper reply, and since this is such a live thread, I'm going to steal it a little...
    So, what's up with this heat threatment...? Timo, did you try to polish under the habaki...? And how can it be 'differentially hardened, but not clay tempered.'...?
    Anyone? Help me learn, and set me straight on this one, please...
    Thnx.
    Hi Hrvoje,

    You can differentially harden a blade by bringing it to temperature, quenching the edge (Not the entire blade) and allowing the spine to cool at a slower rate and then temper the entire blade. You can achieve some fascinating blade activity (Hamon). It's a fairly common method for producing resilient sword blades and can be found worldwide.

    Another alternative is to bring the leading edge of the blade to heat by passing the edge through the coals (This creates a graduation in temperature from leading edge to spine) and then quench. This also creates an interesting blade activity and a differential in hardness. Temper as per routine.

    Both methods produce curvature (Not necessarily to the same degree as with the clay coating method), but the main difference is that clay coating pre-determines the pattern of the hamon.
    Careful thought, consideration & communication is well worth the effort and end result.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck Hank View Post
    Hi Sean,
    yes, Porsche is nice, but not reasonable.
    This swords are for people who practise, and cannot spend much money.
    I kept only two.

    And,,, at least are my friends not so interested for more expensive swords.
    I do hope I did not embarasse somebody...
    I thought about Gunto, but I didn't like. And an old sword I would not test for cutting.
    I liked to start and i did. I will learn more and buy what I will like, for Exercising, looking or cutting.
    Be sure, I listen very carefully to the advices are given here.
    Regards, Eck


    I'm sure you know all of the safety checks when handling and using swords for tameshigiri, so I won't go any further than wish you luck in your endeavours and hope you enjoy your swords
    Careful thought, consideration & communication is well worth the effort and end result.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Stonebridge View Post
    Hi Hrvoje,

    You can differentially harden a blade by bringing it to temperature, quenching the edge (Not the entire blade) and allowing the spine to cool at a slower rate and then temper the entire blade. You can achieve some fascinating blade activity (Hamon). It's a fairly common method for producing resilient sword blades and can be found worldwide.

    Another alternative is to bring the leading edge of the blade to heat by passing the edge through the coals (This creates a graduation in temperature from leading edge to spine) and then quench. This also creates an interesting blade activity and a differential in hardness. Temper as per routine.

    Both methods produce curvature (Not necessarily to the same degree as with the clay coating method), but the main difference is that clay coating pre-determines the pattern of the hamon.
    Hello Sean, long (Tony Long to be exact ) time no see...
    I do know about all that, what I am getting at is this sentence 'differentially hardened, but not clay tempered.'
    Now, my understanding is that you clay HARDEN a blade, not temper...
    Was it, maybe, a semantic error, and he meant not CLAY HARDENED, and as such, having less visible hamon, but because it WAS differentially hardened, it still shows a REAL hamon of a sort...?
    And, since I am asking, am I correct in assuming that you could diff. TEMPER a through hardened blade, getting a softer spine and harder edge, but with no real hamon visible...?
    Thnx. for the patience...

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael wilson View Post
    Check out your headline M.K - its not shocking really

    yeah I remember the uproar your masahiro threads caused last year - but they were in the context of you being able to compare your masahiro's to proven swords like your PC wind and thunder -

    I think what Joo's reffering to and I do not mean any posters in this thread by the way - is when absolute begginners pick up a $150 sword and decide then and there - " this is the real deal , a real sword"

    Sean did Zhi a very favourable review - but Sean can review a sword without all the hystrionics some of us have when we first start out on the path of the sword due to his experience and ability to compare and reference certain points

    - I am going to withhold Judgement until I see a review of one of the $1500
    and above high end Zhi swords , purely out of curiosity and concern for the state of the current market .

    - Thhe closest I hope ever to get to a chinese production katana again is via Bugei and hanwei and thats if I cannott find a gendaito that doesnt need extensive restoration .

    Mick
    Hi Mick,

    I agree concerning Joo's standpoint mate, but the wording left a lot to be desired from my perspective.

    I'd hate to be the first to "invest" in a $1500 Zhi sword, but that's more to do with the unknown quantity aspect of such a deal than any doubt whether or not he can produce the goods.

    Wasn't it you who coined the phrase "Chinatana"?

    -----------

    Timo,

    I'm still working on the polish and unfortunately have just about as much computing literacy as Asterix has a chance of dating Kim Basinger, so the pic's will have to wait until my eldest daughter decides to return from her present trip to Australia and Malaysia (She's taken a year out from her university studies).

    Your dad will probably be able to help regarding suitable steel finishing and processing methods

    -----------
    Careful thought, consideration & communication is well worth the effort and end result.

  22. #122
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    North East England
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    2,635
    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Samija View Post
    Hello Sean, long (Tony Long to be exact ) time no see...
    I do know about all that, what I am getting at is this sentence 'differentially hardened, but not clay tempered.'
    Now, my understanding is that you clay HARDEN a blade, not temper...
    Was it, maybe, a semantic error, and he meant not CLAY HARDENED, and as such, having less visible hamon, but because it WAS differentially hardened, it still shows a REAL hamon of a sort...?
    And, since I am asking, am I correct in assuming that you could diff. TEMPER a through hardened blade, getting a softer spine and harder edge, but with no real hamon visible...?
    Thnx. for the patience...


    Hi Hrvoje,

    Ahhhh...... the Tony Long days

    I think it's more a case of semantics than anything else, because you can do both with the clay still in place and I think he meant to refer to the fact they tend not to clay their blades and edge harden instead.

    Through hardened blades tend to be through tempered too, because the tempering "relaxes" the stress, reduces brittleness and increases the blade's ability to flex.

    You'd basically have to evenly heat the spine of the blade (Whilst trying to avoid heating the edge) in order to soften / relieve the spine, but keeping it's temperature sufficiently low to avoid drawing the blade too far. So much depends upon the state of temper and the steel used.
    Careful thought, consideration & communication is well worth the effort and end result.

  23. #123
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Croatia, Adriatic coast
    Posts
    325
    Thnx Sean, that's what I thought...
    I remember reading about through hardened katanas that were through tempered, but to quite high Rc (a bit over mid 50-ties), and than, after that, tempered some more by carefuly heating the spine for additional temper, more 'springy' temper, if I remember it correctly...
    Now, if only I could remember where I read about it and what katana those were...

  24. #124
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Out of my depths and out of my mind...
    Posts
    3,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Timo Qvintus View Post
    You should add that sentence to your sig, mate..



    Umm.. how many of those swords have been ~$500 range? I thought most of them were low-end to mid-range ones (with cheap cast alloy koshirae and cotton ito).. I may be wrong though. My "custom" iaito cost me $320, which includes $100 worth extras and shipping. To me that is helluva value for my money. BTW, for reference, what did you think of my sword; was that "second rate katana with lousy fittings and horrible maki" too? I'd honestly like to know..

    Well, shipping I include in with the price of the sword,because if you didn't have to pay $80 shipping that's another $80 worth of steel, or polish or koshirae...am I making sense?

    One gent has a $500 Zhi on order , another a $450 and in another thread someone mentioned $400. These are the ones I mean.

    I have a Ukigumo and a Wind and Thunder, neither of which I paid $500 for.

    The following sword I just sold brand new in the classifieds for $210.

    There are just so many other choices in the pricerange that make much more sense to me.

    As far as your sword...I don't wish to single any one example out, as I don't wish to hurt anyones feelings...let's just say I looked at all the pictures and took the average
    [IMG][/IMG]

  25. #125
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    planet home
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    3,146
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Stonebridge View Post
    Following close up inspection of the Zhi blade in my possession (Using an eye glass) and following a direct comparison with a Kris Cutlery blade (Bingo Mihara) - I'm presently polishing for a friend - I can't find any discernable differences between the two.

    They share the same construction methods, style and constituent qualities regarding workmanship with the exception that the Zhi blade had been over zealously polished to a high luster / mirror finish. This mirror like polish is a bit of a bug bear, because it honestly does make Zhi's blades appear cheap, but once calmed down with an application of nugui they take on a different appearance altogether.
    sean, i gotta politely ask what criteria you were following if, after examining with an eyeglass, you criticise pretty harshly the zhi polish, and then state that you couldn't discern any difference between the two blades? i've owned several kc bingo blades, and they all had a polish far better than a "mirror polish". if the polishes alone significantly differ in quality, how could such a judgement really be made? we are talking japanese style blades here, where the quality of the polish can make or break a sword.

    i'm not trying to stoke any fires or anything here, i just see this alot when two different brands are being compared. there's already a bias, so any really subjective comments are. . . well. . . pretty hard to swallow. i know when i like a new sword, it's better than all my others, and then after awhile i'm like "dang, how did that one get by me?".
    les yeich (pronounced yike)

    helden wie wir sterben doch allein,
    einsam unerreicht werden wir sein.
    - the "great" jasmin wagner

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