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Thread: middle eastern swords

  1. #1
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    middle eastern swords

    Hi guys, I have a couple of questions:

    1. does anyone know where I can get straight, double edged middle eastern swords like the ones used against the crusaders?

    2. The scimitars: Where can I get good quality & accurate scimitars? Are there blacksmiths in the mid east that still make good quality blades?

    3. Does anyone have any good links to read up more on the styles, facts and history of middle eastern weapons?

    Thanks for your help in advance

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Man View Post

    3. Does anyone have any good links to read up more on the styles, facts and history of middle eastern weapons?

    Thanks for your help in advance
    Thank you Kevin for your interest in Middle Eastern sword and welcome to our forum. I would like to start with the third question and then I would go ahead with the question 2 and then 1. Thank you very much. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask us. We have very knowledgable members on this forum. Please note that the style of each Middle Eastern weapon has changed over time as it was the case with European weapons. I would like to give you some pictures of the later curved swords (very general) and I am sure other members will expand on this thread and we can go ahead with this.

    Shamshir
    Please note that the Persian word for sword is shamshir. This is a general term and refers to any type of sword in Persian. The roots go back to the Pahlavi and was used in pre-Islamic Iran. Even in Shahname written by Ferdowsi the word shamshir is used to refer to sword, meaning Samanid period. Some people used to think that shamshir is used to refer to highly curved sword. That is not correct as shamshir was used and is used to refer to any type of sword. THis is what people normally associate with a shamshir.

    By courtesy of Oriental Arms
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  3. #3
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    The problems of classification starts when one sees Persian blades in Turkish mounts and also Indian mounts and so on. Then they are called shamshirs as well. I do not necessarily agree with this term. We could call them a Turkish sword with a Persin blade or a Persian blade. Then again please note that Persian smiths also made wide blades some with yelamans as well.

    See the Turkish sword with a Persian blade.

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr

    By courtesy of Oriental Arms
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  4. #4
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    This is a wide bladed Turkish sword known as kilic or Kilij. But even kilic is a general term for sword in Turkish.

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr
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    Indian tulwar

    Look at this marvellous Indian tulwar. That is really fascinating. The chevron blade. The disc in the handle and the handle shape is Indian.

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr

    BY courtesy of Oriental Arms

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    Sorry I forgot the pictures
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    This is what is associated with Afghanistan. Although we need to research the origin of this word and whether it is used in Afghanistan. I am not sso sure about it. It is known as pulwar.

    By courtesy of Oriental Arms
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Man View Post
    Hi guys, I have a couple of questions:

    1. does anyone know where I can get straight, double edged middle eastern swords like the ones used against the crusaders?

    2. The scimitars: Where can I get good quality & accurate scimitars? Are there blacksmiths in the mid east that still make good quality blades?

    Thanks for your help in advance
    Regarding question number one. I would really suggest custom swordsmaker like
    Mr. Richard Furrer, Mr. Greg Thomas Obach, and Mr. Vince Evans.

    Richard and Greg both make excellent crucible steel blades (wootz) and Mr. evans makes outsanding pattern-welded blades. All three are truly master smiths and you will be very satisfied.

    Regarding question number two, please kindly check my article:

    http://www.persianmirror.com/Article...ubCategory=117

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr

  9. #9
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    Kevin

    If you have any further questions please let us know.

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr

  10. #10

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Manouchehr M. View Post
    Kevin

    If you have any further questions please let us know.

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr
    Thank you for the info and pictures.
    Jerry "The Dinosaur" Mings
    Þorbjörn the Mad


    "Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."
    Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Spencer Mings View Post
    Thank you for the info and pictures.
    You are very welcome Jerry. Thank you so much.

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr

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    Thank you very much for the pics/link and names.

    I noticed that the Arabic saif is less curved, was that the only difference between it and the Persian & turkish swords?

    Another quick question, windlass and another maker (can't remember the name right now) make very scimitar scimitars, what is your assessment of the quality? I heard that the blade for both makers is actually made by windlass.

    Thanks again for taking the time to address my questions!

  13. #13
    "windlass and another maker (can't remember the name right now) make very scimitar scimitars"

    I am sorry but I must ask, what is a "scimitar scimitar"? is it an error in typing or does it mean something in English?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Man View Post
    Thank you very much for the pics/link and names.

    I noticed that the Arabic saif is less curved, was that the only difference between it and the Persian & turkish swords?

    Another quick question, windlass and another maker (can't remember the name right now) make very scimitar scimitars, what is your assessment of the quality? I heard that the blade for both makers is actually made by windlass.

    Thanks again for taking the time to address my questions!
    You are very welcome Kevin. Anytime, I would be happy to help. You raise an interesting point. Although I saw some Arab saifs with highly curved Persian blades in Iranian museums, they mostly tend to have less curved blades. The majority that have Persian blades have the so-called Persian trade blades with less curve. But you can also fing highly curved ones, seldom.

    I am not familiar with most of productions blades. Could you give me a link?

    Regards

    Manouchehr

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sancar Ozer View Post
    "windlass and another maker (can't remember the name right now) make very scimitar scimitars"

    I am sorry but I must ask, what is a "scimitar scimitar"? is it an error in typing or does it mean something in English?

    Sancar

    I think Kevin wanted to say similar scimitar. Maybe, I think. Unless it is the product name.

    KInd regards

    Manouchehr

  16. #16
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    Oh sorry, that was a typo, Manouchehr is right, it should read "...similar scimitars"

    One of scimitars is by cold steel and the other one is by windlass but they look very similar. I read somewhere that the blade is the same but they have different fittings.

    http://www.coldsteel.com/88sts.html

    http://www.museumreplicas.com/websto..._scimitar.aspx

    It's a shame that scimitars aren't as common in north America. It's hard to come across a good one sold through the major western sword makers/vendors. At least there's the Persian shamshir, but I have yet to find a saif somewhere.

    By the way, I took a quick peek at the link you sent Manouchehr and some of the swords look great! I will go through it in more detail when I get the chance. I hope you mention in the article how I would go about ordering one if I decided to do so.

    As I mentioned, I'm looking for a curved scimitar - either Persian or Arabic - and a Saladin era sword.

    Thanks

  17. #17
    If your interest is in tulwars, you might want to have a look here:
    http://www.ancientarms.biz/servlet/StoreFront
    They offer tulwars with damast blades (not an authentic pattern though) and koftgari decoration for as low as $250 (which is a steal IMO!), and you even have the choice of entirely new swords, old blades with new handles or entirely old blades. I know someone here ordered two swords, and seemed to be quite pleased, aside from that the velvet on one of his swords turned out to be bright pink (so best is to ask about that first).

  18. #18
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    Kevin

    I have not handled those swords so I cannot make a comment on the quality. Regarding Ostad Farajian, they do not have a fax or email. The best is to go to Iran and call beforehand to order a piece. Then you need to pick it up. You need a permission from Cultural Heritage (that is easy it get as it is not an antique) and then from the army as it is an edged weapon. You can get both but it takes time and paperwork of course.

    Kind regards

    Manocuhehr

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Man View Post
    Oh sorry, that was a typo, Manouchehr is right, it should read "...similar scimitars"

    One of scimitars is by cold steel and the other one is by windlass but they look very similar. I read somewhere that the blade is the same but they have different fittings.

    http://www.coldsteel.com/88sts.html

    http://www.museumreplicas.com/websto..._scimitar.aspx

    It's a shame that scimitars aren't as common in north America. It's hard to come across a good one sold through the major western sword makers/vendors. At least there's the Persian shamshir, but I have yet to find a saif somewhere.

    By the way, I took a quick peek at the link you sent Manouchehr and some of the swords look great! I will go through it in more detail when I get the chance. I hope you mention in the article how I would go about ordering one if I decided to do so.

    As I mentioned, I'm looking for a curved scimitar - either Persian or Arabic - and a Saladin era sword.

    Thanks

  19. #19
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    Thanks for the link Jeroen!

    Manocuhehr, that was a nice article; I really like the shamshirs they make, but unfortunately, going to Iran will be a little tough. One day I might though! Thanks for the info again!

    Do you recommend web site that will act as a reference page for other quick information I might be looking for so I won't have to keep bugging you?

    Thanks!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Man View Post
    Thanks for the link Jeroen!

    Manocuhehr, that was a nice article; I really like the shamshirs they make, but unfortunately, going to Iran will be a little tough. One day I might though! Thanks for the info again!

    Do you recommend web site that will act as a reference page for other quick information I might be looking for so I won't have to keep bugging you?

    Thanks!
    Kevin,

    I do not know about any speific website. But you are welcome to ask any questions you have. We will be happy to help you here. There are a number of specialists in SFI. Just ask us please.

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr

  21. #21
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    Ok, thanks, I will start a new thread with another question soon.

    By the way, how much does Mr Farajian sell his shamshirs for?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Man View Post
    Ok, thanks, I will start a new thread with another question soon.

    By the way, how much does Mr Farajian sell his shamshirs for?

    They vary a lot. His pieces are custom-made and hence in that range. Simple ones are much cheaper. The heat treatment on all his blades are truly excellent.

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr

  23. #23
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    Kevin

    Do you need a blade for training purposes?

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr

  24. #24
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    Hi Manouchehr, I'm interested in swords mostly from a historical point of view. I want a blade that is just as functional and durable as the original. I might take a couple of swings with it and handle it, but I'm mainly interested in owning a piece of history or at least a replica of one.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Man View Post
    Hi Manouchehr, I'm interested in swords mostly from a historical point of view. I want a blade that is just as functional and durable as the original. I might take a couple of swings with it and handle it, but I'm mainly interested in owning a piece of history or at least a replica of one.
    Thanks Kevin for the explanation.

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr

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