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Thread: False Edge on willow leaf saber

  1. #1

    False Edge on willow leaf saber

    Hi Everyone

    I was wondering how common a false edge was on a willow leaf saber? And if they were fairly common how does one use the technique where you wrap the back side of the blade around your back, or was that technique not used at all? Thanks for your help.

  2. #2
    I'm only aware of the willow leaf dao that had a small back edge near the tip. This should not be a problem in most wrapping techniques.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by j.lahmann View Post
    Hi Everyone

    I was wondering how common a false edge was on a willow leaf saber? And if they were fairly common how does one use the technique where you wrap the back side of the blade around your back, or was that technique not used at all? Thanks for your help.
    Hi J.,

    Are you thinking about the niuweidao or oxtail knife? Or do you mean to refer to the liuyedao?

    Sincerely,

    Doug Mullane

  4. #4
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    I was wondering how common a false edge was on a willow leaf saber?
    Are you thinking about the niuweidao or oxtail knife? Or do you mean to refer to the liuyedao?
    liuyedao means willow leaf saber.

    From the examples I've seen, I'd say that false backedges were fairly common and some were pretty long. I got an 18th century example with a false backedge that runs along almost two-third of the total blade length.

    As for the wrapping technique, we can't be sure to what extent this was used in military warfare because the tall antenna's on most Qing helmets would get in the way. Scott Rodell pointed this out on the forum earlier. By far most liuyedao were military sabers.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Dekker View Post
    liuyedao means willow leaf saber.
    Peter,

    Thank you. I know that, yet I wanted to find out from J. if he really meant the willow leaf or the ox tail dao. This is an important distinction, yes?

    In terms of wrapping techniques, armor would cetainly affect this, yet would the wrapping around the body as one does in Hung Gar be totally out of the picture? This is something I wonder about.

    Sincerely,

    Doug Mullane

  6. #6
    Thank you everyone for your replies. Yes I was referring to a liuyedao with a false edge. The reason I was asking was because I am going to be learning a dao form soon and was trying to decide what dao is most appropriate for the form. The form consists of mostly slices and chopping, but has several thrusting movements as well. The niuweidao doesn’t seem to be very well suited for thrusting. This is why I was asking about the liuyedao. Thanks again

  7. #7
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    The fact that there are thrusting movements in your form/style does not have to mean you use either this or that dao type. Both niuweidao and liuyedao can thrust, but neither is such an excellent thruster as the jian is. Which style is it exactly? For one that likely originated in the army, I'd say a liuyedao is the best choice.

    Not being a good thruster is a very relative understanding. One can stab an unarmored man to death with any standard type of liuyedao, yanmaodao, jian, niuweidao, duandao, duanjian, etc.. They don't even need to be very sharp to do so.

    -Peter

  8. #8
    A form I saw recently used a niuweidao, I believe, which is sometimes also called "broadsword", correct? One of the movements is a thrust straight forward and then slightly upward at the farthest extension of the thrust to take advantage of the strong curve of the sharp edge, and was indicated it was a slicing move in that case, not a stabbing. It was an interesting enlightenment toward different ways swords can be used. If there were a false edge in that case, it wouldn't have much effect.

    Another idea... if one was stabbing with a blade straight forward, and had good 3-4 inch plus penetration, a sharp false edge might allow for an upward cutting motion to assist in speedily removing said blade from said stabee, as I understand an embedded blade can be difficult to remove quickly, particularly if others are intent on causing you injury or other unpleasantness.
    Last edited by Richard Lauterbach; 02-14-2007 at 07:44 AM.

  9. #9
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    Such movements are also common in jian swordsmanship. There's several applications for them, one is the one you just mentioned. The other one is to rip a wound open after entering. A third is when you thrust and miss the opponent, and he thrusts for you, the upward movement can damage his wrist so he is unable to finish his movement or to hold his sword.

    When not damaging the wrist, it can still be used to beat his sword out of line so he will miss you.

    The upward movement is called tiao in the Yang family michuan jian system and beng in the public style.

    -Peter

  10. #10
    In the Choy Li Fut dao form I know, there are two specific instances where a thrust is used, but there are many other places where a thrust is an option. Additionally, one of those thrusts certainly is a cut as well.

    Forms are quite interesting when critically studied...

    Sincerely,

    Doug Mullane

  11. #11
    There are some dao wrapping techniques in our form (Wu style) that wrap around the body without wrapping around the head (and interfering with the helmet). We have those as well as the typical around the head moves.

    I asked Scott Rodell about these forms and others that might use the back edge with respect to liuyedao vs. niuweidao. He said that he as seen many liuyedao with a back edge, but very few niuweidao. Most of the liuyedao back edges are not that sharp either.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleaver Barnes View Post
    He said that he as seen many liuyedao with a back edge, but very few niuweidao. Most of the liuyedao back edges are not that sharp either.
    This is something that could be investigated more seriously in terms of differentiating among the variety of dao used historically.

    Sincerely,

    Doug Mullane

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