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Thread: ARMA again ?

  1. #1
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    Wink ARMA again ?

    Greg closed the thread (probably rightly so) but I wanted to put in my 2 cents. To the individual that started the thread my advice to you is to leave the past in the past. Pay no attention to any of us but rather contact some of the ARMA people and John Clements himself and make your own decisions. I've trained with John and the ARMA group over Virginia Beach. Better yet go train with them. I would warn you, their approach is a bit intense with a goal to make their work as real as possible. Bottom line if you train with them over a long period of time you will get bruises and bumps. The training runs the gamit from medium to high risk sometimes but the transition training that I've seen more than prepares one for the speed. I would like to see them use more protective equipment but that is thier approach. As for John CLements approach to historical methods and training, he is very set in his ways and like many of us "Has his standards". He can also be grumpy at times but he does not have that market cornered either. When you engage in sword-talk with John, don't think it will always be pleasant. He is very intent on making his point and has a sincere desire to bring you around to his way of thinking. John is one of those creative professionals who has either enemies or friends. Like all of us John has had more than his share of contraversial issues, you either like him or you don't. Bottom-Line he leads, simple as that. He has a following of great people who don't always agree with him but feel that the training protocol follows is worth the effort. If you are not strong enough to train with a strong, opinionated teacher then don't 'go' there! His training curriculum, regardless of what some of my dear friends here think, is solid. If you want to learn how to use a sword, it will take you there. I must admit that I've a biase favoring John because I have several military friends who really support what John is doing. To be blunt John can "hang a case of the ass" on Jesus but his heart is good and he believes in what he does and that carries more weight with me than someone who chooses to flatter and make you feel good. While some will debate the merits of whether Fiore did it this way or that, John is teaching you how to avoid loosing your arm. I do not have to always agree with a guy to learn from him. You could do far, far worse to train with John Clements and the boys/girls of ARMA.

    O.K. Greg you can block or close this now. You ain't got a hair if you don't post it.

    Best Dwight

  2. #2
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    once again really hard to know what to do, I just want to know how to use a longsword. But thanks for the input, I am getting a real iffy feeling about the book of his I ordered. But in a maschoistic kind of way, I like the idea of training like he does

    ah, hopefully I'll be able to make sense of everything once I've been around longer

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight McLemore View Post
    Greg closed the thread (probably rightly so) but I wanted to put in my 2 cents. To the individual that started the thread my advice to you is to leave the past in the past. Pay no attention to any of us but rather contact some of the ARMA people and John Clements himself and make your own decisions.
    There is WAY, WAY more to it then this. I can go on for two pages on my bad experiences, and another two on things that I've gotten from respected authors and instructors. Although I will again restrain myself, and not launch attack after attack on Clements, I recomment this thread not only be locked, but also deleted.

    Clements is a problem on many levels, and his defenders NEVER address those levels. Every time the subject comes up, I want to talk about the real complaints about Clements, but I have as yet retrained myself to avoid a flame war. Nonetheless, if the moderators wish me not to, I will not, but in fairness to all, ARMA Advocates should NOT be allowed to sing his praises if I cannot then tell the whole of the down side, EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    And it's not the downside most of the ARMA members say it is.

    Most importantly, it is not fair to allow people to say how great something is, if those who have had bad experince may not tell how bad something is.
    Last edited by George Hill; 03-08-2007 at 11:37 AM.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight McLemore View Post
    Pay no attention to any of us but rather contact some of the ARMA people and John Clements himself and make your own decisions.
    That's the best approach in my opinion. Regardless of who you study with, you're likely to come up with your own personal slant on things eventually, to one degree or another. Some people really thrive under the ARMA approach, others don't. My recommendation is hang out with as many WMA enthusiasts as you can. Enjoy Mr. Clements' book, and read a bunch of others as well. I particularly like Mr. Tobler's "Fighting With the German Longsword". It presents the German system in a logical fashion, and Mr. Tobler really has a gift for the written word. You really can sit down and read it, and enjoy the experience... not dry at all.

    Guy Windsor's book is a great read as well. It's full of wisdom and great little quotes like "you are not strangling a chicken". I love that one.

    More importantly, remember that training is more important than reading. Glean what you can from as many sources as possible, and train with those you feel are giving you best instruction. It's really as simple as that. Once you've learned the basics, you'll be better prepared to figure out what's legit and what's not.

    Good luck!

    Best regards,

    -Mark

  5. #5
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    Experiences

    George: I deeply sorry for your bad experiences. Hang in there?

    Carl: Be your own man and study all these guys. Best book for me right now has been Guy Winsors. Christian has a good one too. All have passed the dojo test. Bottom Line may be Who is closest to you to train with.

    Best
    Dwight

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight McLemore View Post
    George: I deeply sorry for your bad experiences. Hang in there?
    I will. But bad experinces are common with ARMA, you just don't hear about them.

    Personally, I'm thinking that I might just post the whole objection that I've been exchanging over PM with everyone, if this thread is still here and unlocked tomorrow at this time. But I think it will be locked, or Greg will post and say "please don't." (If he doesn, I won't.)
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  7. #7
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    Bad experiences are common to everyone. I defy any school to stick their hand up and say they have never had an unhappy student or a student who didn't leave because of xyz.

    You normally never hear of these things. ARMA is a huge organisation in comparison to most schools who, in my experience seem to have between 0 and 30 regular students.

    Carl: Be your own man and study all these guys. Best book for me right now has been Guy Winsors. Christian has a good one too. All have passed the dojo test. Bottom Line may be Who is closest to you to train with.

    Best advice you're going to get.

    Alex.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex H. View Post
    You normally never hear of these things. ARMA is a huge organisation in
    You do not hear of them because talking about them is discouraged, which is the point.
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  9. #9
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    I seriously hope you do, I for one want to learn, not just about Western Martial Arts, but about the modern community itself, the various politics, the main issues that divide or unite it, etc I want to understand it

    but if you can't I hope you can send me a message atleast detailing these things.

    like I said I'm just trying to learn,

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlRutledge View Post
    I seriously hope you do, I for one want to learn, not just about Western Martial Arts, but about the modern community itself, the various politics, the main issues that divide or unite it, etc I want to understand it

    but if you can't I hope you can send me a message atleast detailing these things.

    like I said I'm just trying to learn,
    Carl, I'll send you a private message soon. Do you want the long version, which has everything and takes a couple of letters, or the very short version, which sums up?
    1

  11. #11
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    Come On

    Come on George, Take the high ground .

    Best
    Dwight

  12. #12
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    We all have the same interest but we approach it different ways. Let newcomers experience all the options and decide for themselves. We should only encourage, never discourage.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight McLemore View Post
    Come on George, Take the high ground .
    Spreading the truth is the high ground.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Hill View Post
    Spreading the truth is the high ground.
    Maybe we should start a new thread, to discuss the nature of Truth ...... OH GOD NO, PLEASE SPARE ME!!!!!

    Bob
    Bob Brooks
    Marshal of the School,
    Hotspur School of Defence

    "There are four D's which I never refuse: A Dinner, a Duel, a Drink and a fair Dame!"
    - Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821-1890)

    "I worship the Prince of Peace ... not the Prince of Pre-emptive War.
    - Former US President Jimmy Carter

    "May I ask one more question?" said one of my friends. "I have often heard it said that if you don't know much about fencing the best thing to do is, as soon as you come on guard, to make a sudden rush at the other man before he has time to collect himself."
    "Well," I replied, "if you wish to make sure of being incurably spitted, that is the most infallible way to set about it."

    - Baron Cesar de Bazancourt, Secrets of the Sword, The Tenth Evening XII.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Brooks View Post
    Maybe we should start a new thread, to discuss the nature of Truth ...... OH GOD NO, PLEASE SPARE ME!!!!!

    Bob

    Is axiology really on topic for this forum?
    1

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Hill View Post
    Is axiology really on topic for this forum?
    No, that would be on the Axe Forum.
    Bob Brooks
    Marshal of the School,
    Hotspur School of Defence

    "There are four D's which I never refuse: A Dinner, a Duel, a Drink and a fair Dame!"
    - Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821-1890)

    "I worship the Prince of Peace ... not the Prince of Pre-emptive War.
    - Former US President Jimmy Carter

    "May I ask one more question?" said one of my friends. "I have often heard it said that if you don't know much about fencing the best thing to do is, as soon as you come on guard, to make a sudden rush at the other man before he has time to collect himself."
    "Well," I replied, "if you wish to make sure of being incurably spitted, that is the most infallible way to set about it."

    - Baron Cesar de Bazancourt, Secrets of the Sword, The Tenth Evening XII.

  17. #17
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    Last Comment

    This is my last comment .....Get the 'hate' off your back, you'll feel better.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight McLemore View Post
    This is my last comment .....Get the 'hate' off your back, you'll feel better.

    Who said "it right that a man should hate wickedness. "?

    Of course, what's far more at issue here isn't my feeling, positive or negitive, but rather "Is it moral for forum moderators to allow the covering up of the bad behavior of Clements and ARMA members, by preventing the open discussion of the subject, inorder to prevent flame wars?"

    Also, "Should new comers be forced to discover negitive things, or should they be advised, in the same way a child would be warned that the stove is hot?"
    1

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Belair View Post
    We all have the same interest but we approach it different ways. Let newcomers experience all the options and decide for themselves. We should only encourage, never discourage.
    Well said, Sean.

    And on that note, I'm gonna close the thread. Dwight and George - you guys might want to take this offlist.
    Greg Mele
    Chicago Swordplay Guild

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    "If the tongue could cut
    as the sword can do,
    the dead would be infinite."

    Filippo Vadi, "Arte Dimicandi Gladiatoria" (c.1482 - 87)

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