Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: A Chinese trident

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    10,682

    A Chinese trident

    This piece is a solid one. I would really appreciate any information on this weapon:
    Courtesy of Ashoka Arts

    "A massive steel trident head from China. These incredibly robust weapons are known as 'Tiger spears', they were used for hunting and fighting tigers hence the exaggerated size and thickness & weight of the iron. They also were used as more general weapons, and with special training could be used with devastating effect. The trident arms are of thick flattened steel with a central strengthening ridge, the central spike is four sided and gets thicker towards the base giving it immense strength and removing any chance of it bending in combat. The three points are decorated at their junction with a brass rosette. The haft is of thick steel again hollow to take a thick wooden or bamboo shaft. This piece is wonderful for display as well as being a striking and authentic far eastern weapons. Overall length 28 inches, width from outer blades 13 inches. China, 19th century, 18th century."
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    In the Shaolin Arts, we call it a "Tiger Fork".

    Always made me think of a place-setting.

    The Kwan Dao would be the knife and I suppose the Monk's Spade, the spoon?
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by J. Hedgespeth View Post
    In the Shaolin Arts, we call it a "Tiger Fork".

    Always made me think of a place-setting.

    The Kwan Dao would be the knife and I suppose the Monk's Spade, the spoon?
    Thanks very much for your input. Would you please explain what you mean by the Monk's spade?

    Kind regards

    Manouchehr

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    See the definition here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk's_spade

    See the performance here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=riy5iYGMI...elated&search=
    Last edited by J. Hedgespeth; 09-15-2007 at 09:23 PM.
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  5. #5
    I think the tiger fork and the monk's spade are both specialized weapons for martial artists, not weapons used by the regular military. This is as apposed to the kwan dao which was listed as a regulation weapon of the Qing military but I think the name was "reclining moon knife". If it is referred to as a kwan dao you are once again using a martial arts society term. As the Qing military is long gone, while many martial arts societies still exist, most people use the common name “kwan dao”.

    We don’t use a tiger fork as far as I know in my style. Some wushu practitioners use them, but I think they are very rare in the more traditional styles. Were they used for capturing prisoners, or just running them through?
    Josh

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Quote Originally Posted by josh stout View Post
    I think the tiger fork and the monk's spade are both specialized weapons for martial artists, not weapons used by the regular military. This is as apposed to the kwan dao which was listed as a regulation weapon of the Qing military but I think the name was "reclining moon knife". If it is referred to as a kwan dao you are once again using a martial arts society term. As the Qing military is long gone, while many martial arts societies still exist, most people use the common name “kwan dao”.

    We don’t use a tiger fork as far as I know in my style. Some wushu practitioners use them, but I think they are very rare in the more traditional styles. Were they used for capturing prisoners, or just running them through?
    Josh
    The Kwan dao was a name given to the weapon to respect the most popular user of them all....General Kwan Kung...and yes, there are several other pronuciations for his name (gee..wasn't he in the military?). The monk's spade was a shovel used by monks....quite frankly, this is a forum about all types of pole arms, swords and other related weaponry. I did not know you or anyone else classified it strictly for the military. But then again...didn't the military train in martial arts...or are you forgetting just where the word "martial" evolved from?
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  7. #7
    I am sorry, I did not mean to imply any preference for one group of edged weapons users over another, I was just trying to differentiate the sources of particular weapons. Ox tail sabers are certainly wonderful swords, but they were never used by the regular military. I would suspect that the name "kwandao" was and is the name used by the majority of Chinese. The Imperial (Manchu) regulations may have used a term not associated with nationalist (Han) connotations.

    I also come from a Shaolin lineage, but we lost most of the larger weapons during the years of anti-Chinese pogroms and suppression of Chinese culture in Indonesia. We were mostly left with sticks and knives, with sword movements only being given out late in the school's history. My teacher's teacher would have known how to use a tiger fork, but I sure don't. I would love to know more about its origin stories or applications.
    Josh

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Quote Originally Posted by josh stout View Post
    I am sorry, I did not mean to imply any preference for one group of edged weapons users over another, I was just trying to differentiate the sources of particular weapons. Ox tail sabers are certainly wonderful swords, but they were never used by the regular military. I would suspect that the name "kwandao" was and is the name used by the majority of Chinese. The Imperial (Manchu) regulations may have used a term not associated with nationalist (Han) connotations.

    I also come from a Shaolin lineage, but we lost most of the larger weapons during the years of anti-Chinese pogroms and suppression of Chinese culture in Indonesia. We were mostly left with sticks and knives, with sword movements only being given out late in the school's history. My teacher's teacher would have known how to use a tiger fork, but I sure don't. I would love to know more about its origin stories or applications.
    Josh

    No problem and no offense taken. Our lineage, for the most part, emanated mainly from the Fukien temple and eventually found its way into Indonesia. Our Great-Grandmaster Ie Chang Ming was a outlaw to the Chinese government in that time. He fled to Indonesia and opened a school...Teaching Chinese Shaolin Fighting as a Japanese Karate, he called it Shaolin Do, adopted a belt system with karate gi's, so when the authorities visited the school to inspect it, they saw Shaolin being taught and could not recognize it due to their ignorance of martial arts and the outward Japanese appearance of the school.

    The Indonesians were sympathetic to the Chinese officials, simply because they knew if they opposed them, they would be next on the "annex" list.

    Schools started here in the United States under Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' (GM Ie's successor) in 1966. We are not Wu Shu. We still use "economy of movement" and "swift execution" to dispose of our opponents in the original art of survival. So there is scarcely any form of flowery movements that serve no purpose in our practice. The weapons are still a normal part of our material and are taught even in the early stages to the student. Entire systems are learned as well and we train from external to internal. Some weapons include: Bo, Stick of the Northern Beggar, Three Sectional Staff, Sai, Dao, Kwan Dao, Spear, Jian, Tiger Hook Swords, 9 and 15 Section Chain Whip, Pa Kua Daggers, Pa Kua Broadsword, Wind and Fire Wheels, Iron Fan...etc...

    The curriculum is intense and vast, as we train both mentally and physically.
    Now, as far as I can tell you about the Tiger Fork, my Master has one hanging on the wall and he has said that nothing is hung on the wall, that has not been taught. If I remember, I will ask him about it tomorrow night. Maybe, if he is in a good mood, he will share some information.
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  9. #9
    Your school seems to have some things in common with mine. For all public events we wear a gi, but then we practice in private in white kung-fu pants and a white t-shirt. The weapons tend to be more hidden though. Spear and kwandao techniques are hidden in the staff forms, shuang jian techniques are hidden in an open hand form, and many saber techniques are hidden in stick forms. We even go so far as to give public performances to music like pencak silat does even though we never practice that way. I have been trying to bring the weapons out of hiding, but many of the more exotic ones such as the trident seem to be lost. The problem with uncovering hidden moves is they have to be recognized before they can be uncovered. I would love to know about movements specific to the trident. Perhaps I already have a movement designed for the trident and I don't even know.
    Josh

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Well, I asked our Master...

    He basically said a Tiger Fork form was taught a LONG time ago and only as a two man set...Tiger Fork vs Sword (which I assume he was referring to the dao).

    I asked him if a standard form for one person was ever taught and he replied: Not to his knowledge, at least in this country in our schools. He has been a student since 1972, so I assume he knows what he is talking about.

    I did check the material list and up to 5th Black (Associate Master) it is not taught as a reguar part of our curriculum. Sadly, it must have been taught at a seminar. There are a lot of things taught at our seminars, but they are usually not a part of the normal training.

    It is funny you should mention how things are hidden...
    When a new Black Belt comes to his first Black Belt class, we have him do his very first short kata all day long...This is something they learn as a White Belt. He/She gets really frustrated doing this and then we explain to them that the basic spear thrust is in that short kata. It is funny to watch their reactions as each is different...But just about all, learn quickly to respect and explore more of what they have learned because of this.
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •