Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 106

Thread: Links between contemporary medieval masters

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    732
    Gregorius:

    Me and my big mouth. Now I have to go track this stuff down.

    You know what? It's a lie! I just made it up!

    ; )
    Matt Galas
    Mons, Belgium

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Suburban Chicago area
    Posts
    3,595
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Galas View Post

    You know what? It's a lie! I just made it up!
    Good try, my man, good try. Now, to the books...
    Greg Mele
    Chicago Swordplay Guild

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    "If the tongue could cut
    as the sword can do,
    the dead would be infinite."

    Filippo Vadi, "Arte Dimicandi Gladiatoria" (c.1482 - 87)

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Northumberland, Anglo-Scots Border
    Posts
    1,002
    Heilige Scheiße! This is becoming a real adventure!

    Just done a quick Google Earth on Markdorf - here are the results.

    There's a Markdorf in Baden-Wurttemburg.

    There are threeLichtenaus within 100 miles of that spot;

    1. In Oberbeyern, Bavaria (80 miles to the east)

    2. In Unterallgau, Bavaria (52 miles to the east

    3. In Baden-Wurttemburg (92 miles to the northwest)

    As mentioned previously, the third on the list is less than 90 miles as the crow flies from Metz, home of Niccolo of Toblem.

    I think we seriously need to look in this area.

    Honourably,

    Bob
    Bob Brooks
    Marshal of the School,
    Hotspur School of Defence

    "There are four D's which I never refuse: A Dinner, a Duel, a Drink and a fair Dame!"
    - Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821-1890)

    "I worship the Prince of Peace ... not the Prince of Pre-emptive War.
    - Former US President Jimmy Carter

    "May I ask one more question?" said one of my friends. "I have often heard it said that if you don't know much about fencing the best thing to do is, as soon as you come on guard, to make a sudden rush at the other man before he has time to collect himself."
    "Well," I replied, "if you wish to make sure of being incurably spitted, that is the most infallible way to set about it."

    - Baron Cesar de Bazancourt, Secrets of the Sword, The Tenth Evening XII.

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    near Bonn, Germany
    Posts
    1,698
    Hi Matt!

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Galas View Post
    Remember Marlon Hoess-Boetger's conference in Zuerich in 2003? This was one of the topics of conversation there. Here's a snippet of text from an e-mail to Marlon related to that. However, I'm not sure we're talking about the same source, given the dates involved:

    (snip)
    No, this was from another Totenbuch, the Necrologium Usbergense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Galas View Post
    I passed this on to Marlon, who was unable to find any Marchdorf, anywhere in German lands! (He did find Swabian Markdorf, however.) It's a shame Marlon left us.
    Well, he's back! At least sporadically. But I'm not sure whether he's actively training/research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Galas View Post
    Anyway, good to hear from you! I was beginning to wonder if you were alive!
    Ah, I'm just swamped to the gills and then some...don't ask.

    But I'm looking forward to have some relaxation at WMAW.

    Jörg
    Member of Ochs

    "It is a bad teacher that does not allow his student to become better than himself" (Sixten Ivarsson)

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    732
    Hi, Greg!

    Okay, the CW references are to the Zabinski facimile of Codex Wallerstein. PD is the Pisani-Dossi manuscript.

    Compare Plate 16 of CW to Carta 20B (lower right) and Carta 22A (upper right) in PD. Not identical, but extremely similar. This is a pretty unusual technique to just crop up independently. (This is the technique which shows up in Mair with the sword & buckler; sorry, no cite at this time.)

    Compare Plate 17 of CW with Carta 23B (lower right) of PD. Different angle, but looks like the same technique.

    Compare Plate 18 of CW with folio 31r and 31v of the Getty. In the CW technique, he grabs the opponent’s blade with his left hand and pushes it onto his neck, using it to throw him. Fiore shows nearly the same throw, but with the right foot instead of the left; otherwise, it’s the same (grab his blade, push it into him, use it as leverage to make him fall). This is very unusual in German works.

    Compare Plate 19 and 26 of CW with Carta 21A (lower right) of PD. Same concept, slight difference in the pommel hook (larger difference in 26, but it’s a variant). Plate 19 of CW is nearly identical to the Getty version on folio 29r (upper right) (including foot placement).

    Compare Plate 22 of CW with Carta 24A (lower right) of PD. This is the “tor de spada de soto”, which is not common in German works.

    Compare Plate 24 of CW with Carta 21B (upper right) of PD. Slight difference in instructions, but the underlying tactic is the same, and the artwork is nearly identical.

    Compare Plate 27 of CW with Carta 23A (lower left) and Carta 23B (lower left) of PD. These are not the same techniques, but the concept (which I think of as a “threading” immobilization and throw) is the same, and is fairly unusual in German manuals.

    So out of 26 longsword techniques in Codex Wallerstein, 7 are similar to those appearing in Fiore’s manuals. That’s more than a quarter of the techniques. Is that statistically significant? Seems so to me, especially when some of the techniques are pretty uncommon in German works (especially plates 16, 18, 22, 27).

    However, my wording "clear and strong influence from Fiore" is clearly a bit strong. I must have been under the influence...

    I suppose you could get into the wrestling section (which I haven't done) and the Messer (of which Plate 59 uses a similar throw to Carta 14B (lower left) of PD. The CW dagger appears unique.

    Bart Walczak would probably have some insight on this.

    Regards,
    Matt Galas
    Mons, Belgium

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Suburban Chicago area
    Posts
    3,595
    OK, ball's in my court now! I'm off ....
    Last edited by Gregory Mele; 07-24-2007 at 01:46 PM.
    Greg Mele
    Chicago Swordplay Guild

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    "If the tongue could cut
    as the sword can do,
    the dead would be infinite."

    Filippo Vadi, "Arte Dimicandi Gladiatoria" (c.1482 - 87)

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    732

    Liechtenau & Tomblaine (Toblem)

    Hi, Bob!

    There are _lots_ of Liechtenaus out there. I looked in an old postal directory for Germany from the late 1800s, and found something like 20. "Liecht" means "light"; "au" means "area"; and I've been told that "liechtenau" originally refers to an area where there was light in the forest because the trees had been felled. (Since much of German farmland is on forest cleared in medieval times, you can see why this would be a common name.)

    Like you, my bet is on the one in Baden, near Metz. I've seen documents showing that the town existed in the 14th century, and gained certain privileges in the 1360s (if memory serves). Also, a noble named Conrad von Liechtenau is on the list of the dead in one of the big battles nearby in the big 1388 war between the nobles and the cities.

    However, there's another one in Franconia near Nuernberg that is a good candidate, plus one in Austria. Plus all the others...

    Anyway, here's my take on this, from an e-mail I sent to various folks in 2004.

    [snip]

    Here's my thought process on Magister Nicholai de Toblem, Mexinensis diocesis. While I haven't come anywhere close to tracking him down, I think I've narrowed down the possibilities to one or two choices (as far as place of origin).

    Starting out, I looked at the manuscript facsimile appearing in Novati's work. I see no problems whatsoever with Novati's transcription. Not only is the passage quite clearly written, but the form of the letters is consistent with other words throughout that page (e.g., the "x" matches other examples of that letter, etc.).

    Next, I looked for "Toblem" and "Mexinensis" in both period and modern sources. I came up with no results for either. This is not surprising, given the way place names are often mangled in medieval texts -- especially foreign place names which the author may not be all that familiar with. Toblem could either be a place of origin (i.e., the town where he is from) or a surname, indicating membership in a noble family. Toblem is actually a Jewish surname; interesting lead, but unlikely to be connected with nobility in the context of medieval Europe.

    From the above, the most supportable conclusion is that the two place names have been garbled in translation. It's nice to have a diocese mentioned, since that greatly limits the possibilities. Accordingly, I consulted a variety of sources listing Latin placenames, especially names of medieval dioceses. The most easily accessible source for medieval Latin place names is Graesse's Orbis Latinus from 1909. There are no entries for Mexinensis or Toblem - not even close. Looking at the entries for "M", the closest names I could find were the following: Mechlinensis (Mechelen in Belgium); Megenensis / Meginensis campus (the former district of Mayenfeld on the lower Mosel river); Mexentiae pons (Pont-Sainte-Maxence in France), Misnensis (Meissen in Saxony); and Metensis (Metz in Lorraine).

    I eliminated two of these quickly. Mexentiae pons (Pont-Sainte-Maxence) and Megenensis, while linguistically close to "Mexinensis", are not (and never have been) dioceses, as best I can tell. Also, neither has any town or city named Toblem nearby, or anything that remotely sounds like Toblem.

    Considering the remainder, Mechlinensis (Mechelen in Belgium) is a diocese, but only dates back to 1559. There are no towns near Mechelen with names even remotely resembling "Toblem." This leaves Misnensis diocesis (Meissen in Saxony), which dates to the 10th century, and Metensis diocesis (Metz in Lorraine), which dates to the 4th century.

    In Misnensis diocesis (Meissen in Saxony), there is a town called Doebeln. The letters "d" and "t" are linguistically interchangeable, the only difference being that one is voiced, the other is unvoiced. I can easily imagine that "Doebeln" could become "Toblem." Johane dicto Suveno was pretty clearly a German (suveno = Swabian). For medieval Italians, the term "Swabian" and "German" were pretty much interchangeable. (This dates back to the 12th and 13th centuries, when Swabian nobles connected with the Hohenstaufen dynasty ruled much of Northern Italy.) There would be nothing unusual about a German (Johane Suveno) studying under a Saxon sword master; in fact, the Saxons were well-known in Germany for their swordsmanship (as were the Swabians). Also, the geography is not that unlikely, since Meissen is on the trade routes that pass through southern Germany down to Italy.

    The other possibility, which I believe is more likely, involves Metensis diocesis (Metz in Lorraine). On the outskirts of that diocese is a town called Tomblaine (also rendered Tombelaine or Tomelaine). Again, I can easily imagine that an Italian hearing the name "Tomblaine" could render it as "Toblem." Tomblaine dates back to Gallo-Roman times, and is mentioned a number of times in the anonymous Chronicle of Lorraine from the 15th century. Although later diocese maps show Tomblaine lying just outside of the diocese of Metz, the diocese boundaries often changed. The Bishops of Metz were constantly engaged in feuds and wars with the Dukes of Lorraine, the Counts of Bar, and others throughout the 14th century, so the diocese boundaries were pretty fluid.

    Earlier church documents (early 1300s) show that the stewardship of nearby St. Nicolas-de-Port (even farther south than Tomblaine) was traditionally bestowed on the Dukes of Nancy by the Bishops of Metz. St. Nicolas-de-Port was one of the top pilgrimage sites in Lorraine. St. Nicolas was the patron saint of Lorraine. Because of this, Nicolas was a very popular name in Lorraine, and shows up in all social classes (Duke Nicolas of Lorraine, Bishop Nicolas of Verdun, Abbott Nicolas, Nicolas de Nancy, Nicolas Chaillot, burgher of Metz, etc.), as well as in place names (Hospital of St. Nicolas in Metz, St. Nicolas-de-Port, etc.) Thus, it would make perfect sense that someone coming from Tomblaine, near the famous pilgrimage site of St. Nicolas-de-Port, would be named Nicolas (or some variation thereof).

    The above neatly links the names of Nicholai (Nicolas), Toblem (Tomblaine), and Mexinensis (Metensis = Metz).

    As far as a link to Germany (and Johane dicto Suveno): Metz was an imperial city, and part of the Holy Roman Empire. It is quite close to Swabia (reference Johane Suveno), and was a multilingual town, so it was heavily frequented by Germans.

    Regarding a link to Italy (and Fiore dei Liberi): Metz was one of the most important bishoprics in the Holy Roman Empire, which meant that it had a great deal of contact with the Pope. Churchmen from Metz were present at the papal curia in both Rome and Avignon. The presence of Italian bankers in Metz is well-documented from the 1290s. They were typically referred to as "Lombards", much like the Italians lumped all Germans together as "Swabians." I've found a number of references to Italians in the archives of Metz, such as Maistre Jaike lou Lombart (Master Jake the Lombard), Perrin lou Lombart, and Philippins li Lombars.

    In addition to the ecclesiastical and commercial ties with Italy, there was also probably a military connection as well. In the 1360s and 1370s, Lorraine was flooded with foreign mercenaries. Given the frequent feuds and wars in the region, the presence in Metz of an Italian man-at-arms (such as a young Fiore dei Liberi) or a German mercenary (such as Johane dicto Suveno) would not be unusual. Looking at this the other way around, the presence of a fencing master from Metz in Italy would also not be unusual, given the commercial and ecclesiastical contacts between Metz and Italy.

    As mentioned above, the Bishops of Metz were warlike, and in constant conflict with neighboring noblemen. Metz was at war with the Count of Luxembourg, the Count of Bar and the Archbishop of Trier from 1324-1327. Metz went to war with the Duke of Lorraine 4 more times between 1340 and 1353. Mercenary bands scourged Lorraine in the 1360s and 1370s. In 1371-72, there was civil strife between the Bishop of Metz and the city government; and Enguerrand de Coucy's mercenary army pillaged the area around Metz in 1375. These are the kind of conditions (like those in Italy, or southern Germany) which produce fencing masters. This is also the time span during which I would expect Nicholai de Toblem and Johane dicto Suveno to have flourished.

    Another possibility in the diocese of Metz is the town of Dombasle (near St. Nicolas-de-Port) and the village of Dombasle (close to Metz). In French, Dombasle is pronounced along the lines of "dome-ball." While not as linguistically close to "Toblem" as Tomblaine, I've seen much worse mangling of place names in medieval texts. And the village is very clearly within the limits of the diocese. The town is farther south than Tomblaine, but still right next to St. Nicolas-de-Port, which was connected to the diocese of Metz in the 14th century.

    I've gone through a few medieval chronicles of Metz (one in German, one in Latin, another in French), looking for any mention of Nicholai de Toblem, but found no mention of a single fencing master, let alone Nicholai de Toblem. In archival sources, I've found several mentions of a "Magister Nicolaus" associated with Metz, but these mentions date from the 1200s, and clearly refer to religious titles.

    One final possibility, which I find unlikely: Toblem could be Toblach in Austria. While unconnected with a diocese starting with "m", it is very close to Friuli.

    Anyway, that's the state of my research into Magister Nicholai de Toblem, Mexinensis diocesis. I will be visiting Tomblaine, Dombasle, and St. Nicolas-de-Port in the coming weeks. I'll let you know if I come across anything of note.

    Regards,

    - Matt
    Matt Galas
    Mons, Belgium

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    732
    Bob:

    Couple of thoughts: Regarding the Liechtenaus near Markdorf, remember that the boundaries have changed. The old border of Swabia was the river Lech, right past Augsburg. Using that marker, the one in Unterallgau may be in (former) Swabia. Can you check this?

    Joerg:

    Interesting - maybe we have two necrologia with the same reference?

    Regards,
    Matt Galas
    Mons, Belgium

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Oxford, CT, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Very interesting Matt, particularly as I recall you previously feeling Liechtenauer would likely have had an origin in the east of the Empire. As I think you will recall, the dialects ascribed to most of the surviving medieval German material makes me think it's more a south German tradition, though clearly some of its masters hail from the east.

    I'm not sure the Jewish possibility should be so quickly dismissed though: Ott and Lew (associated with armoured combat, no less) are pretty heavy hitters. Granted, one source says Ott was baptized, but I'm not sure that's recorded of Lew.

    It would be an amazing development if we could close in on Liechtenauer himself enough to actually have some biographical data. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and wishing you good hunting!

    All the best,

    Christian
    Christian Henry Tobler
    Selohaar Fechtschule

    The Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Author, Captain of the Guild, DVD: The Poleaxe, In Saint George's Name

    "Though I love the stout blow and the cunningly placed thrust, my greatest joy when crossing swords lies in those rare moments when Chivalry herself leans over and takes one into Her confidence."

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Oxford, CT, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Hi Matt,

    That Lichtenau appears to be west of the Lech.

    CHT
    Christian Henry Tobler
    Selohaar Fechtschule

    The Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Author, Captain of the Guild, DVD: The Poleaxe, In Saint George's Name

    "Though I love the stout blow and the cunningly placed thrust, my greatest joy when crossing swords lies in those rare moments when Chivalry herself leans over and takes one into Her confidence."

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    732
    Hi, Christian!

    If my East-West dyslexia hasn't fouled me up, that means it's in Swabia!

    Regarding Liechtenauer's origin, I've long felt that he travelled in the East, but didn't necessarily come from there. The other place worth considering is Markt Liechtenau near Nuernberg. It's right near Eschenbach, home of the famous poet Wolfram von Eschenbach, which is a nice tie-in to the verses. Also, Eschenbach was a Ballei or Komtur of the Teutonic Knights. Given the popularity of the Northern Crusades at that time as a school of chivalry, its possible that a young Liechtenauer may have travelled East in connection with that. The records of the Teutonic Knights showed that they made payments to a Niclas der Schirmer (Nicholas the Fencer) in 1401, so it's not too far-fetched...

    You could certainly weave all this together into a nice piece of historical fiction, that's for sure!

    Regards,
    Matt Galas
    Mons, Belgium

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    732

    Dialects & Doebringer II

    Well, the GNM says that Hs. 3227a is in Ostmitteldeutsch (East Middle German). Back in 2003, I found another manuscript by the same scribe who wrote Hs. 3227a (90% probability rate). It uses the same odd spelling for certain words, and yet that library says that it's in a Bohemian dialect. Take a look at the spelling below, and you won't see a whole lot of difference, even when the text is the same. (Granted, some of these dialectical things can be really fine details.) Anyway, though, this points to a more Eastern origin for Hs. 3227a. Not surprising, given the names of the masters.

    Unfortunately, no martial material is included. But it holds out the possibility that there are more manuscripts out there by this guy, whoever he was. And I came across this completely by accident, looking at manuscripts on the occult aspects of the art. Then the hair on the back of my neck started to raise when I opened the first little book and recognized the ink & calligraphy...

    Below is a list of similarities in contents which I noted between Hs. 3227a and the other manuscript. In addition to the similarities below, there is the size of the book (tiny), the color of the ink (chocolate brown) and capitals (red-orange); the mix of German and Latin; the presence of spells against thieves, wolves; recipes for alcoholic drinks (wine & mead); medical recipes; and a little drawing of a hand with a pointing finger to emphasize a point, which appears in Hs 3227a after the Krumphau. Bottom line, way too many similarities for this to be a coincidence, especially considering the list below.

    Here are some of my notes, making a comparison between the two manuscripts.

    3227a: Parchment & paper, measuring 14.5 cm x 10.5 cm (no mention of
    watermarks)
    Ms. X: Paper with ox-head watermarks, measuring 15 (or 15.5) cm x 10.5 cm (some dated 1394-1416, some dated 1400-1402)

    3227a: 1r-5v Marcus Graecus, Liber Igneum
    Ms. X: 79v-83r Marcus Graecus, Liber Igneum

    3227a: 11r-12r Nu spricht meister Alkaym das dy erste herte is allermeist
    yn kaldem wasser...laz das leder alzo of dem eisen vorbruen zo wirt is
    weich.
    Ms. X: 77v-78r Nu spricht meister Alkaym: die erst hertte is allermeist
    yn kaldem wazzer...laz daz leder also auf dem eisen vorbruen zo wirt iz
    weich.

    3227a: 161v Meister Albrant's Rossarzneibuch (contra morbus equorum)
    Ms. X: 7v-10v Meister Albrant's Rossarzneibuch, more Rossarznei on 11v &
    62v (contra pestem equorum)

    3227a: 76v Wiltu machen eyn helfenbeynen trynkvas...
    Ms. X: 14r Wilt du machen gut helffenpeyn trinckfas aus ayerschallen...

    3227a: 66v-67r Table of the 4 elements, 4 temperaments, 4 seasons, and the
    relations between them.
    Ms. X: 63r-65r Meister Bartholomaeus: Der mensch ist geschaffen aus den IIII elementen...

    3227a: 121v soap recipe
    Ms. X: 12r soap recipe: Wiltu sephe machen so num assche eyn tayl...

    3227a: 116r, 121r making magical lights
    Ms. X: 69r ...ein ewig licht machen; ut ymago in nocte sit radians

    3227a: Gynecological text by Hans Pernecker on 157v
    Ms. X: Gynecological text on 3v-7r
    Matt Galas
    Mons, Belgium

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Oxford, CT, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Wow Matt.

    God, I so need to get a full digitization of 3227a. Especially for the elemental correspondences (right up my alley).

    Do you know how to get a facsimile of manuscript X? Is there an accension number?

    All the best,

    Christian
    Christian Henry Tobler
    Selohaar Fechtschule

    The Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Author, Captain of the Guild, DVD: The Poleaxe, In Saint George's Name

    "Though I love the stout blow and the cunningly placed thrust, my greatest joy when crossing swords lies in those rare moments when Chivalry herself leans over and takes one into Her confidence."

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    746
    Damn.

    You should do this for a living if you don't already.

    Alex.

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Pioneer Valley, MA
    Posts
    895
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Brooks View Post
    Heilige Scheiße! This is becoming a real adventure!

    Just done a quick Google Earth on Markdorf - here are the results.
    Place names do change, you know...

  16. #91
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Oxford, CT, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Hi Matt!

    Some further observations:

    - The veterinary stuff is cool, because it appears in one of Mair's compendia too, as I recall. It would be fantastic to know if its the same treatise.

    - It's interesting to me that Hausbuch X has no fighting, given my earlier speculation that the scribe in question might have nothing to do with 'the Art'.

    - I agree, the spelling is within the margin of variation found even within single manuscripts - it sure looks like the same dialect, at least from the heading you've posted.

    - I'd forgotten that Hils notes 3227a is eastern German. My mistake!

    Questions:

    - The oxhead watermark appears in the Thott 290 Talhoffer. I wonder if it's the same mark, and what that tells us.

    - I'm not familiar with 'helfenpeyn'..."Wilt du machen gut helffenpeyn trinckfas aus ayerschallen..." Is this, "if you want to make a good cup of mead from XX" ?

    Cool stuff!

    All the best,

    Christian
    Christian Henry Tobler
    Selohaar Fechtschule

    The Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

    Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

    Author, Captain of the Guild, DVD: The Poleaxe, In Saint George's Name

    "Though I love the stout blow and the cunningly placed thrust, my greatest joy when crossing swords lies in those rare moments when Chivalry herself leans over and takes one into Her confidence."

  17. #92
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Pioneer Valley, MA
    Posts
    895

    Codicological context

    The codicological context of these works is important. Who was writing down their lessons and why? One of the 15th century English texts, for instance, is interspersed with a medical text (I forget which, this is from talking to James Hester).
    Last edited by Ken Mondschein; 07-24-2007 at 09:38 PM.

  18. #93
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    near Bonn, Germany
    Posts
    1,698
    Fascinating, Matt!

    I do think this *very* likely that Ms. X was written by the same scribe.
    Maybe it would be a worthwhile effort to find out if there are even more soruces written by the same hand.

    As for Hs. 3227a being written in East-Middle German, that would bring us back to the Cottbus-Breslau connection, BUT: this says only something about the scribe, not about Liechtenauer himself.

    And as for trying to locate his origins, a lot of settlements and castles have vanished over the years, such as the castle Lichtenau near Ursberg-Mindelzell, where the Necrologium Ursbergense is kept.

    Jörg
    Member of Ochs

    "It is a bad teacher that does not allow his student to become better than himself" (Sixten Ivarsson)

  19. #94
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Northumberland, Anglo-Scots Border
    Posts
    1,002
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Mondschein View Post
    Place names do change, you know...
    Sheesh Ken, you don't say!

    Fantastic information Matt, thanks ever so much for your input!

    The hunt goes on ....


    Bob
    Bob Brooks
    Marshal of the School,
    Hotspur School of Defence

    "There are four D's which I never refuse: A Dinner, a Duel, a Drink and a fair Dame!"
    - Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821-1890)

    "I worship the Prince of Peace ... not the Prince of Pre-emptive War.
    - Former US President Jimmy Carter

    "May I ask one more question?" said one of my friends. "I have often heard it said that if you don't know much about fencing the best thing to do is, as soon as you come on guard, to make a sudden rush at the other man before he has time to collect himself."
    "Well," I replied, "if you wish to make sure of being incurably spitted, that is the most infallible way to set about it."

    - Baron Cesar de Bazancourt, Secrets of the Sword, The Tenth Evening XII.

  20. #95
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    732
    Hi, Christian!

    You wrote:

    "Questions:

    - The oxhead watermark appears in the Thott 290 Talhoffer. I wonder if it's the same mark, and what that tells us.

    - I'm not familiar with 'helfenpeyn'..."Wilt du machen gut helffenpeyn trinckfas aus ayerschallen..." Is this, "if you want to make a good cup of mead from XX" ?"

    Answer 1: Oxhead watermarks were pretty common. I believe that this watermark was used by many different makers. The experts on this have books full of watermarks, and can tell the difference between one oxhead and another. I would doubt it's the same, given the difference in time.

    Answer 2: Helfenpeyn = "elephant bone" = ivory. "If you want to make a nice ivory drinking cup out of eggshells..." (This is a recipe for artificial ivory.)

    Regards,
    Matt Galas
    Mons, Belgium

  21. #96
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Dieke View Post
    You may want to check for "Dobrin".
    Just a thought, but there is a place in poland called Dobrzyń and during the thirteenth century this place was the base of the germanic 'order of dobrin' (a military order). I realise this place is in Poland not Germany, and I believe that the order merged with the teutonic knights before the fourteenth century (presumably before Doebringer's time). Still I thought I'd mention it since beyond Doebringer's name we also know that he was a monk and a swordsman.
    Last edited by Ken McKenzie; 10-06-2007 at 07:20 PM.

  22. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken McKenzie View Post
    Just a thought, but there is a place in poland called Dobrzyń and during the thirteenth century this place was the base of the germanic 'order of dobrin' (a military order). I realise this place is in Poland not Germany, and I believe that the order merged with the teutonic knights before the fourteenth century (presumably before Doebringer's time). Still I thought I'd mention it since beyond Doebringer's name we also know that he was a monk and a swordsman.
    Actually, What context was Doebringer's name mentioned in the manuscript?
    1

  23. #98
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Pioneer Valley, MA
    Posts
    895
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken McKenzie View Post
    Just a thought, but there is a place in poland called Dobrzyń and during the thirteenth century this place was the base of the germanic 'order of dobrin' (a military order).
    "Poland" is a modern creation (the German/Polish borders weren't even fixed until after 1989). The area east of the Elbe was subject to a strong Germanic colonization push.
    Last edited by Ken Mondschein; 10-07-2007 at 02:05 AM.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by George Hill View Post
    Actually, What context was Doebringer's name mentioned in the manuscript?
    His name is mentioned in the headline on folio 43r:
    Hie hebt sich an der ander meist~ gefechte hanko pfaffen döbringers Andres Juden Josts von der nyssen Niclas prewßen
    Roughly translated:
    Here commence the fencing(techniques) of the other masters etc.

    Best regards
    Dierk

  25. #100
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by George Hill View Post
    Actually, What context was Doebringer's name mentioned in the manuscript?
    I have the transciption of hs3227 from the ARMA Poland site and the David Lindholm transcription/translation both of which are incomplete, even so I can find only one mention of Doebringer by name.

    At the top of 43r in Lindohlm it says:

    Hie hebt sich an der ander meister gefechte
    Hanko pfaffen Do[e]bringers Andres Juden
    / Josts von der nyssen / Niclas prewßen

    Which Lindohlm translates as:

    Here begins the other Master swordsmen;
    Hanko the priest Doebringer, Andres
    Juden, Josts von der Nyssen and Niclas
    Prwessen

    Interestingly enough it's slightly different from the ARMA Poland one which says:
    .+. hanko pfaffen do[e]bringers

    Hie hebt sich an der ander meister gefechte.+. Andres Juden / Josts von der nyssen / Niclas prewssen

    I'm probbably splitting hairs here since the difernce seems minimal, but surely they can't both be accurate transcriptions.

    Other then that I recall Matt Galas mentioning that there is a reference to Doebringer in a manuscript somewhere in the Scott Collection.

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •