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Thread: Oni-Forge Shobu Zukuri...

  1. #26
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by David Buck View Post
    Honestly I have had plently of swords with cracked tsuka. As long as you have a fuchi and a kahira and most importantly a tight wrap you really have nothing to worry about in my opinion. The tsuka won't break due to how a tsuka is on the nakago. The excellent design of how the pressure is around the tsuka, inside the tsuka, plus you have two steel rings (the F/K) holding the ends from "splitting". I would not worry so much about it splitting or breaking. It just doesn't look nice with a crack.

    So, you think a tsuka with a crack is fine?



    ....

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen C. View Post
    Well, see, there is part of my concern. How many are cracking on installation and how many are cracking on removal. I'm not sure where the rubber mallet on the tsuba routine started but it doesn't make good sense in applied physics. It may seem like the way to go but the broader faced the hammer and the wider the tsuba, the more leverage you have working against you. Would you guys consider starting to use hardwood blocks that will apply force against the seppa, alongside the habaki? A rubber mallet is also robbing you of energy. A good plastic faced or hardwood mallet, used in conjunction with a wood drift (block) against the seppa should be a lot more efficient. You can even make a tool (slotted board) that will apply force to both sides of the impact area (seppa). You can get the general idea of this concept by looking at the nakago nuki that Fred Lohman sells.

    When you tap against the tsuba, you are driving the opposite side up into the base of the habaki and the habaki up into the machi. I'm not saying all the cracked tsuka are a result of removal technique but have to wonder if some might be.

    I will freely admit my next would be my first but I'm speaking from experience in automotive and general machine repair knowledge. Anyone that has chased a bearing race down a shaft understands where I'm coming from. Anyone thinking about leverage and equal and opposite reaction should catch my drift (pun fully intended).

    One could conceivably use my technique with sword and block in one hand and the mallet in the other. Yes, watch your fingers and palm on the edge (even wrap the whole mess in a rag). I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly but I think it is Keith that has a special name for the fork gizmo.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; someone did report botching a habaki in overzealous tsuba thumping
    Glen, I have worked on my tsuka removal skills, The habaki got botched because I kinda tried doing it the wrong way due to frustration, now I have a splint and mallet, and they come off somewhat easier.

    Funny thing though, I bought a Ronin from Mr. Drier, and the tsuka came off with 4 light to medium blows on the splint. I had to literally beat the tsuka off both Cheness swords I have owned. The ronin also has no cracks, and fits the blade exactly, and Brian only charges 300 for a sword. $20 more than Mr. Chen charges for a Tenchi, and the same as he charges for a Kaze.

    Why is it so friggin hard for people to fit a tsuka properly?

  3. #28
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    still waiting...

    Well I contacted Loren and so far recieved one reply asking for pictures. I sent the pictures, waited a couple days then sent another e-mail and have not heard back.

    When I had a cracked tsuka on my Cheness, I received contact back from Paul within 8 hours and within two days he had sent me a new tsuka that I could try and file to fit. I filed, it fitted, and is now as snug and fits great. That kind of customer service is great and makes the problems seem non-existent when remedied that fast.

    This whole several days before a response thing makes me wonder if he cares....

    Blackwell
    "You will make my strength your own. You will see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father. And the father, the son. "

  4. #29
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    If I remember correctly there was a post not to long ago from Loren saying that he is understaffed and such. Maybe he needs more man power to take care of the business.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tinker Pearce View Post
    I hate to suggest this, but could the rash of cracked tsukas be related, at least in part, to the profusion of cheap swords?

    I have no idea if the particular sword in question is a cheap sword or not, but frankly the swords that this seems to be occuring on are, well, cheap.
    Yeah, I'll be tipping my hat to Tinker on that one.

    I reckon for under 1000 bucks if it holds together at all you're doing good. Maybe some of us swordsmiths see things differently from our angle but very little of what I see coming from overseas has much "internal" quality, if you could call it that, nor would I expect it too in that price range, and after the 100% plus middle-man markup especially. ( at least)

    To see them as anything other than "starter swords", and to expect alot, is a mistake IMO.

    In any case, a crack in the tsuka core isn't a good thing regardless of the wrap over it. But that's what happens when generic tsukas are forced onto nakago, pounded on in some cases. Maybe if you can force some carpenter's glue into the crack it'll be ok.

    The force it would take ( again IMO) to crack the core by hitting the tsuba with anything would have to be enourmous. It shouldn't crack it. Might wreck the tsuba/habaki depending on how much care was taken, but I think it's almost certain the core would have been cracked when the tsuka was forced onto the nakago.
    RHGraham
    Swordsmith, Evolution Forge

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHGraham View Post
    Yeah, I'll be tipping my hat to Tinker on that one.

    I reckon for under 1000 bucks if it holds together at all you're doing good. Maybe some of us swordsmiths see things differently from our angle but very little of what I see coming from overseas has much "internal" quality, if you could call it that, nor would I expect it too in that price range, and after the 100% plus middle-man markup especially. ( at least)

    To see them as anything other than "starter swords", and to expect alot, is a mistake IMO.

    In any case, a crack in the tsuka core isn't a good thing regardless of the wrap over it. But that's what happens when generic tsukas are forced onto nakago, pounded on in some cases. Maybe if you can force some carpenter's glue into the crack it'll be ok.

    The force it would take ( again IMO) to crack the core by hitting the tsuba with anything would have to be enourmous. It shouldn't crack it. Might wreck the tsuba/habaki depending on how much care was taken, but I think it's almost certain the core would have been cracked when the tsuka was forced onto the nakago.
    Thanks Mr.Graham and I agree with both yourself and Tinker.

    I expect a certain degree of quality control when I spend a certain amount of money, but I also expect issues to be resolved within a timely matter whether I spend .01$ or 1,000.00$.

    All I want is a new tsuka core so I can get a custom wrap done up for it to match a tanto I have in the works. I'm easy, send me a F%^@ing tsuka core and I'm happy.

    Oh well, live and learn. I should have known from the get go, I had communication issues with him before I even made a purchase

    Blackwell
    "You will make my strength your own. You will see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father. And the father, the son. "

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by B.Blackwell View Post
    Thanks Mr.Graham and I agree with both yourself and Tinker.

    I expect a certain degree of quality control when I spend a certain amount of money, but I also expect issues to be resolved within a timely matter whether I spend .01$ or 1,000.00$.

    All I want is a new tsuka core so I can get a custom wrap done up for it to match a tanto I have in the works. I'm easy, send me a F%^@ing tsuka core and I'm happy.

    Oh well, live and learn. I should have known from the get go, I had communication issues with him before I even made a purchase

    Blackwell
    Sorry If I sounded like I was being critical, I agree with your take on quality controll. I find the whole thing frustrating as well, it's not so much fun to compete with companies that use words like "battle ready" or "traditional" or "made for the dojo" when the truth is far from that, and they have unlimited marketing resources and don't let little things like "truth" stand in thier way. Generic saya, generic tsuka, generic blades, all jammed together, thrown in the crate, onto the boat. Of course some of it is cracked, of course some of them are damaged/rattle/fall apart. I guess my wish would be for people to simply see them for what they eally are and not keep putting them on pedastals as being something more than a mass-produced low-bid-contractor-made sword. That's all they are.
    One of these days, one of them will come apart in somebodies hands, and somebody will get hurt.
    Then what?

    Anyway, hope it works out for you... hey, you got a snap-on dead-blow... so you know tools, why not make your own core?
    I bet you can do a better job than most of the import companies guys do.
    RHGraham
    Swordsmith, Evolution Forge

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RHGraham View Post
    Sorry If I sounded like I was being critical, I agree with your take on quality controll. I find the whole thing frustrating as well, it's not so much fun to compete with companies that use words like "battle ready" or "traditional" or "made for the dojo" when the truth is far from that, and they have unlimited marketing resources and don't let little things like "truth" stand in thier way. Generic saya, generic tsuka, generic blades, all jammed together, thrown in the crate, onto the boat. Of course some of it is cracked, of course some of them are damaged/rattle/fall apart. I guess my wish would be for people to simply see them for what they eally are and not keep putting them on pedastals as being something more than a mass-produced low-bid-contractor-made sword. That's all they are.
    One of these days, one of them will come apart in somebodies hands, and somebody will get hurt.
    Then what?

    Anyway, hope it works out for you... hey, you got a snap-on dead-blow... so you know tools, why not make your own core?
    I bet you can do a better job than most of the import companies guys do.
    Mr.Graham,

    Please no apologies needed I did not take it as critical and I very much appreciate you taking the time to confer with me!

    I appreciate your vote of confidence but unfortunately I don't have time. I have all the tools and resources in the world, including an entire family of wood workers but I don't have the time. 1 wife + 3 Kids in diapers = Busy as hell

    Blackwell
    "You will make my strength your own. You will see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father. And the father, the son. "

  9. #34
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    1 wife + 3 kids - time on the forum = new tsuka core.

    JUST KIDDING!
    "Knowing others is intelligence; knowing yourself is true wisdom. Mastering others is strength; mastering yourself is true power."

    - Lao Tzu

    "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."

    "To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

    - Sun Tzu

  10. #35
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    geese, i just love the oni forge shobu-zukuri...makes me want to go out and buy 10! lol, my favorite zukuri

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sal v. View Post
    geese, i just love the oni forge shobu-zukuri...makes me want to go out and buy 10! lol, my favorite zukuri
    Actually, Loren was selling these in batches of 10 swords each on eBay for less than half the retail-price..
    Certified nerd; if you need an Excel sheet or an AutoCAD drawing done, just drop me a PM!

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo Qvintus View Post
    Actually, Loren was selling these in batches of 10 swords each on eBay for less than half the retail-price..
    yep, that's why i said it i went on one time and saw all these shobu zukuris!! made e want to flip out of my seat that they were going for so low.

  13. #38
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    Well, I have one of this model and my overall impression is not good. You do indeed get what you pay for.

    The good: All the lines on the blade are laser-straight. The fittings fit well. I like the copper seppa, and the simple tsuba is an exercise in understated elegance.

    The bad: Cotton ito, unevenly wrapped. Paneled same (not that I'd expect a full wrap on a cheap sword). Tsuka just won't come off (did previous owner glue it on?) Shinogi is a bit round towards kissaki, could be much crisper. Polish is 6 to 800 grit max, looks like some of the etchant for the fake hamon got places it wasn't supposed to be (basically I have to finish polishing it).

    All these problems, I was expecting most of them when I bought it. Overall it looks nicer than I expected. Just the same, I ain't swinging this sucker around until it has a nice, solid tsuka, maybe with a full same or even a wire wrap.
    Those who do nothing for fear of regret often end up regretting that they did nothing. - Me

  14. #39
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    This Saga continues.....

    I finally got loren to take the blade back and he promised a replacement. I told him that I was worried about sending it to him in fear of never hearing from him again or seeing any kind of product make it back my way. He said it would take him one week to return product back to me and that he would "hook me up" for the trouble.

    Well so far it has been 2 months since he received my sword. Everytime I contact him he sends me a reply stating. "I'm out of state when I get back I will check on it". Those are the replys I get when I write a novel telling him how dissapointed I am.

    So far in the last two weeks I cannot get a reply at all back....

    This so far has been, by far the worst experience I have ever had with an online retailer since the birth of the internet.

    Blackwell
    "You will make my strength your own. You will see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father. And the father, the son. "

  15. #40
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    Man, I am sorry that you are going thru this. It sucks.

  16. #41
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    This is just an opinion and not advice, but get your money back. It's shame Oni forge has gone this way, it had alot of support here, now I wouldn't go near them.
    "I wear my soul at my side"

  17. #42
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    I've requested either any of these things to make me a happy customer and be rid of me...

    1.) Return my original shobu
    2.) Refund my Money
    3.) Send new sword w/o defects

    I have been patient, polite and tactful to this point. I am at my wits end. Hmm, you know what Northridge, Ca is not very far from here......

    Blackwell
    "You will make my strength your own. You will see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father. And the father, the son. "

  18. #43
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    Man...That is nothing but rough. Hope all turns out in your favor. I was wondering what had happened.

    Sad to hear that Loren is out of his "playing field".

    Good Luck B.!
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  19. #44
    Unfortunately, this has been the standard method of operation for Loren. He has promised to return a defective sword that I sent back that was in stock and took him 2 months to ship, after constant badgering, and have yet to receive it back. This has been an on going issue since March. Currently reversing the charges with credit card and losing his number and email.

    Good luck in your endeavor. If it has been like most people that have done business with Loren here lately it won't turn out good.
    Dale Joseph
    Jinenkan Butoku Dojo

  20. #45
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    Unfortunately, this thing happens all to often. It took 9 months to resolve the issue (i.e. my money back).

    As I've mentioned on other threads, A fancy website does not quarantee good customer service once the money has changed hands.

    Bartender and Brewmeister for the Pub


    Stranger in a Strange land

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by B.Blackwell View Post
    Well I contacted Loren and so far recieved one reply asking for pictures. I sent the pictures, waited a couple days then sent another e-mail and have not heard back.

    When I had a cracked tsuka on my Cheness, I received contact back from Paul within 8 hours and within two days he had sent me a new tsuka that I could try and file to fit. I filed, it fitted, and is now as snug and fits great. That kind of customer service is great and makes the problems seem non-existent when remedied that fast.

    This whole several days before a response thing makes me wonder if he cares....

    Blackwell
    There was a thread a few months ago dealing with Lorens response to emails and customer problems. A half dozen or more posters, including myself, stated that once Oni Forge had the money, Loren usually would not respond at all, or respond with curt replies that did not fully address the issues. These were all true personally stories. Mysteriously, that thread has been deleted.

    I bought 6 swords from Loren a few months back, and my problem was the ship time, IIRC 6 weeks or more. After I paid he never responded to my email inquiries about them. I finally recieved them, and though two have extremely sticky scabbards, the quality was pretty good. In retrospect, I would rather have saved myself worry and bought from cheness. Though more expensive, his response is excellent.

    On all of the swords, the tsuka did feel rather thin IMO. The new cheness tsuka I ordered is much thicker, but as expected, the channels are a weak point. My next blade will probably be a cheness sent somewhere for a professionally done tsuka core.

    This is at least the second thread detailing Lorens customer service issues that I know of. Who knows how many others have been deleted? IMO doing so in the first place was a terrible mistake, when people come here every day to 'check out' retailers and swords. Hiding a retailers issues is almost complicit, and as such could be dangerous to SF.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Sowinski View Post
    There was a thread a few months ago dealing with Lorens response to emails and customer problems. A half dozen or more posters, including myself, stated that once Oni Forge had the money, Loren usually would not respond at all, or respond with curt replies that did not fully address the issues. These were all true personally stories. Mysteriously, that thread has been deleted.

    I bought 6 swords from Loren a few months back, and my problem was the ship time, IIRC 6 weeks or more. After I paid he never responded to my email inquiries about them. I finally recieved them, and though two have extremely sticky scabbards, the quality was pretty good. In retrospect, I would rather have saved myself worry and bought from cheness. Though more expensive, his response is excellent.

    On all of the swords, the tsuka did feel rather thin IMO. The new cheness tsuka I ordered is much thicker, but as expected, the channels are a weak point. My next blade will probably be a cheness sent somewhere for a professionally done tsuka core.

    This is at least the second thread detailing Lorens customer service issues that I know of. Who knows how many others have been deleted? IMO doing so in the first place was a terrible mistake, when people come here every day to 'check out' retailers and swords. Hiding a retailers issues is almost complicit, and as such could be dangerous to SF.

    Anthony,

    Here is the thread. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=79855
    It's been locked though, for reasons I do not know.

    J,

    Thanks for the support.

    Blackwell
    "You will make my strength your own. You will see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father. And the father, the son. "

  23. #48
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    Holy crap...here's another thread closed for no reason on this issue, no statement from Mods or anything..http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=79746

    This is just plain sad, it's starting to look like Loren has friend's in high places...this is so dissapointing....

    Blackwell
    "You will make my strength your own. You will see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father. And the father, the son. "

  24. #49
    That is NOT the thread in question, though thanks for the link. The thread I spoke of was at least two pages, was started by Scott Long, and had the personal experinces of many posters in it. IIRC Loren may have posted once or twice in response to a few of the posters, ignored the majority of his customers posting in that (now deleted) thread. In this thread: Trying to Contact OniForge another locked thread, Scott asks why his thread was deleted. If he recieved a response from the SF moderators, he did not share it there.

    So, we have at least four threads now that I know of describing Oni Forge's service issues, one of which was deleted from the boards, two of which were locked. All of them were customers who were relating their own true experiences, on a board where thousands come looking for just that sort of information.
    Last edited by Anthony Sowinski; 08-24-2007 at 04:18 PM.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Blackwell View Post
    Holy crap...here's another thread closed for no reason on this issue, no statement from Mods or anything..http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=79746

    This is just plain sad, it's starting to look like Loren has friend's in high places...this is so dissapointing....

    Blackwell
    Actually B...This thread had a final post that insights flaming..Which will cause the thread to be closed. No matter how true, it is the way it is expressed...Similar to the old wild west.."Let's get a posse' together and hang'em ourselves!". That type of expression is better left to PM's.

    However, this example:

    http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=79855

    Had no apparent reason. This could have gone on forever on a Cheness issue, but Oni Forge..Your statement of Loren having friends in high places is pretty certain.

    I like Loren's swords, which is where I am currently at in the scope of my swordish childhood...But like many children I am disappointed once again and if this is the case, I will continue my way upward to more responsible collecting and buy from more responsible sellers.
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

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