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Thread: Turkish / Indian ?? Kilij Sword

  1. #26

    Floral Designs on Kilij

    Hello Artzi,

    Have been comparing the section of floral work on the kilij with early 16th & 17th century work. In the 16th -17th century part where the vine curls there is often a circular section added, later work is a little less detailed and losed that small round section atached to the vine. That section of floral work appears more in tune with later work.......

    rand

  2. #27

    Koftgari on Pashas Sword

    Wanted to mention a couple things about teh koftgari that look similar to 16th century work, mainly how vertical the writing is, to me that is inline with a 16th century style. I just have a problem with how acute the detail is and the quality of the lines on curves. The 16th century work on a quality item would be very precise and crafted with an eye for the quality of the line of a dove.

    There is also a certain softness to it, much akin to the lines of a painting by Delacroix.

    One question I would have is why was the writing not larger so it would fill the vertical space on the blade? I know the amount of words would need to be fewer, but it would be more in keeping with 16th century inscriptions on blades.

    Still, I like this sword quite a bit and it certainly deserves more research.

    rand

  3. #28
    Join Date
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    Dear friends,

    A good friend of mine asked me to post this kilij for him here to have a compartive purposes. Artzi thanks again for posting these two wonderful swords. Ottoman swords are an area that still needs a lot of analysis and I am sure Turkish scholars will come up with new and up-to-date research soon.

    As we also discussed I am setting up a research team on comparing calligraphy and also gold-inlaying and overlaying techniques on shamshirs compared to dated artifacts (other metalware) from the National Museum of Iran that have dates and provenance with papers. I am sure we will come up with new findings. But these are all on Persian weapons.

    Now back to this Ottoman piece that is dated 1702. Obviously the style survived for a period: I am sure my friend will also join this dicussion.

    Kind regards

    Manocuhehr
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  4. #29
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    More pics.

    Any suggestions on translations are highly appreciated.
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  5. #30

    Another Great Sword

    Thanks for posting this sword....

    First thing I noticed about the inlay is it appears to have been done iwith a Turkish technique, a series of over layed triangular punches with gold then applied. You can just see the edges of the triangles where there is wear. Think its safe to assume that the gold was originally very heavily applied, the circles may have been much more filled in. This technique is also see frequently on 18th & 19th century yataghans. This sword dated 1702 is further evidence for dating this technique.

    Has been said more than once about the 18th century revival of the Golden Era when the Ottoman Empire was great under the "Law Maker'.

    What is the metalurgy of the blade? Wootz? Turkish maidens hair? Pattern weld?

    You can see this was a valued blade by the quality of the mounts....

    rand

  6. #31

    Calligraphy on blade

    The calligraphy on this blade apprears to be in the square kufic style.
    http://www.sakkal.com/Arab_Calligraphy_Art6.html

    Square kufic alphabet
    http://www.sakkal.com/instrctn/sq_kufi_alphabet.html


    rand
    Last edited by rand milam; 07-31-2007 at 11:39 PM. Reason: addition

  7. #32

    More pics of swords with square kufic writing

    http://www.pbase.com/dosseman/image/59051561

    http://www.pbase.com/dosseman/image/59051562

    http://www.pbase.com/dosseman/image/59051567

    http://www.pbase.com/dosseman/image/59051568

    These are at the Isanbul military Museum, made for teh Sultan Selim 1512-1520...published in Military Museum Collections page 58...

    rand
    Last edited by rand milam; 08-01-2007 at 03:53 PM. Reason: addition

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rand milam View Post
    Thanks for posting this sword....

    First thing I noticed about the inlay is it appears to have been done iwith a Turkish technique, a series of over layed triangular punches with gold then applied. You can just see the edges of the triangles where there is wear. Think its safe to assume that the gold was originally very heavily applied, the circles may have been much more filled in. This technique is also see frequently on 18th & 19th century yataghans. This sword dated 1702 is further evidence for dating this technique.

    Has been said more than once about the 18th century revival of the Golden Era when the Ottoman Empire was great under the "Law Maker'.

    What is the metalurgy of the blade? Wootz? Turkish maidens hair? Pattern weld?

    You can see this was a valued blade by the quality of the mounts....

    rand
    Hi Rand,
    it is a kind of türkisch pattern.
    Kurt
    Kurt

  9. #34

    Same Inscription?

    http://www.pbase.com/dosseman/image/59051568


    This blade may have the same inscription, where it is similar to a triangle shaped wave....

    rand

  10. #35

    Another identical inscription

    http://indonesiankris.blogspot.com/

    The attached kilij made for Sultan Suleyman 1520-1566 and published on page 56 of the Military Museums Collection. The inscription in the circle is identical....

    rand
    Last edited by rand milam; 08-01-2007 at 03:54 PM.

  11. #36

    Inscriptions- Two Styles of Calligraphy

    All the inscriptions seem to be made with the same manner of inlay, yet there are two diverse stiles of calligraphy. Is there any consideration to two different time periods of application? My feeling is that it was all done at the same time.

    rand

  12. #37

    Looking for 16th century documented inscriptions

    Am looking for good images of known 16th century swords inscriptions to post for comparison with Artzi's kilij. Such as the Mamluke sword engraved with Necmidden Eyyub, Mehmet II, Sulaymans, etc....

    thanks,

    rand

  13. #38

    Another Sword with similar inscription to Kurts

    Page 145, Sultan Bayuzids II sword, in "Islamic Swordsmiths and Swords" has a very similar inscription, sorry image was not sharp enough to post.

    But it dies supply translations, unfortunately does not say which is for which.

    "Made by Haiji Sunghur in the year 912 (1506)

    "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger"

    "Sultan.... What Allah has ordained ..."

    "In the name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful"

    inside the groove, the "Throne" verse from the Quran is cited

    I have handled two of Bauyuzid II yataghans and and another now in the Met from the Royal workshop also. Have unpublished photo's of them from when they were auctioned in LA about 20-25 years ago.... I was the underbidder on each one, making bids up to what my house was worth (125K) , Its quite a story to share sometime......

    rand

  14. #39
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    Kurt`s sword

    ]Hi Rand,

    thanks for translattion.
    It is an exactly identical sword in the army museum Paris.

    "About LA"
    25 years ago I bout in LA a Pesh Kabz from this auction.

    It´s a pitty I lost the catalog .
    Can you post pictures of the Bauyuzid yatagans?
    kurt
    Kurt

  15. #40

    Another Match....

    Hey Kurt,

    Have quite a story about that auction to share sometime, I took two rolls, seventy two photo's of the three yataghans, I just have to find them, will be happy to share..... The one with the carved solid gold scabbard is the most incredible, I believe one of the three was later sold to the met for 3 mil....

    There are two more swords at the Metropoliten Museum of Art, with the same inscription as yours, its pictured in "Arms and Armor" by Grancsay, page 168.

    On the cross quillion guard of the kilij it is signed,"Sultan Babur Beg Khan", Babur founded the Mughal dynasty in 1526.

    On the guard of the shamshir its signed,"Sultan, Son of a Sultan, Sultan Sulaiman Khan"

    The book provides no interpetation for the sword blades but am sure you should be able to get that from the Met.... They probably have a good digital image you could obtain too.

    I was the underbidder on all three yatagans... they were true treasures!!

    Do you know the history of Mr Ingrams collection?

    Am finding your sword very intrigueing Kurt....

    rand
    Last edited by rand milam; 08-03-2007 at 11:08 AM. Reason: grammer correction

  16. #41
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    Kurts sword

    Hi Rand,
    Thank for information!
    I have another similar sword.
    I hope Manoucher readjust the photograph for me into the forum.
    Excus my bad English .
    kurt
    Kurt

  17. #42
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    Feb 2002
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    Hi Kurt and Rand,

    As required by Kurt, I am posting the pictures of the second sword provided by Kurt.

    Kind regards
    Manouchehr
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  18. #43
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    Feb 2002
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    Beautiful swords Kurt. Thanks for sharing.

    Kind regards
    Manouchehr

  19. #44

    Latest sword pic from Kurt

    Kurt,

    Cannot make out any detail from sword photo, do you have another picture that you can post? It looks like another great sword.....

    Thanks,

    rand

  20. #45

    Square Kufic on Buildings

    As the square kufic calligraphy was used to decorate the exterior of buildings in 11th-12th century, we should consider the possibility that that inscription (saying), may represent a place. Such as a the Shrine of Abdullah Ansari or Madrassa of Ulugh-Beg ibn Shahrukh at Samarkand. Both of these structures are covered with square kufic script.

    For Americans one place that carries symbolic meaning is the Alamo..... The saying, (Remember the Alamo) carries a lot of meaning.

    Or the inscription may simply represent their faith much as the cross can represent being Christian.

    Or the inscriptions meaning could be talismanic, in that wearing or holding certain sayings may have been thought to protect you. We know Sultan Suleyman wore clothing profusely covered with embroidered writings.

    Or a combination of meaning or intent.

    An old Persian archeologist once told me that pointing your sword towards the enemy was symbolic of a fight to the death till the intent of your enemy changed. The symbolism can carry a much greater and deeper meaning thats hard to translate in one word, one sentence, one paragraph, maybe a book would do. That could partially explain why these sword hold so much value.

    rand
    Last edited by rand milam; 08-04-2007 at 11:05 PM.

  21. #46

    Kilij Calligraphy

    Hello Artzi,

    Have located 30-40 kilij sword with long inscriptions on the blade, the majority of these were done with the square kufic calligraphy. Most are not dated but some also have the name of the current ownt and when Sultan or Shah the time period of that hilting can be established.

    The blades that a date can be determined are from early 16th century to the 19th century, with the majorty usung the suare kufic script.

    This yataghan form a friends private collection,

    http://turkishyatghan2.blogspot.com/

    The gold is inlay, believe it to be with the Turkish techinque of a triangular punch overlay and then the gold applied.

    The calligraphy has a similar vertical line, also the slanted accent marks, but no diamond shaped dots. Your kilij's calligraphy had the diamond shaped dots. So we have similarities and dis-similarities between these two examples. Look carefully at the signature on the yataghan...

    The great majority of calligraphy I find on 16th century Turkisih kilijs has the square kufic script.

    rand

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