Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 97

Thread: Tsuka core of Cheness

  1. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    11,760
    split core, this is how they achieve the one size fit's all.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
    SCHOLA GLADIATORIA
    ______________________________

    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    11,760
    different angle.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
    SCHOLA GLADIATORIA
    ______________________________

    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    north east England
    Posts
    3,052

    thanks jeff

    The ito is wrapped by hand - but no hishigame is used and no tying stand either - just a girl wrapping these cores free hand - I can do it this way but I know its wrong - thats why I pay someone else $300 + to do it correctly .

    watch this vid - its good that the blades are hand forged - no machining , no power hammering and polished over stones to a certain extent - but thats the blades -

    the koshirea is a different matter entirely

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_JcP0AASFw

    want a tsuka to fit any nakago ? simple - just bray it on with a wooden mallet!

    MIck
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    11,760
    Quote Originally Posted by michael wilson View Post
    The ito is wrapped by hand - but no hishigame is used and no tying stand either - just a girl wrapping these cores free hand - I can do it this way but I know its wrong - thats why I pay someone else $300 + to do it correctly .

    watch this vid - its good that the blades are hand forged - no machining , no power hammering and polished over stones to a certain extent - but thats the blades -

    the koshirea is a different matter entirely

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_JcP0AASFw

    want a tsuka to fit any nakago ? simple - just bray it on with a wooden mallet!

    MIck
    Mick, I'd hazard saying that video is outdated now.

    They changed vendors for the tsuka, right?

    The woman in that video is clearly alternating the crossovers, and she is clearly not using glue to hold it down (It loked more like pine sap, or something of the sort, really, it was still gummy!)
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
    SCHOLA GLADIATORIA
    ______________________________

    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis View Post
    I bought a cheness tsuka for the fittings... they weren't brass... you can clearly see silver coloring where I gouged the metal out after noticing they felt light.
    Did you take this up with Paul to find out why the fittings are not what they are advertised as being?
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    north east England
    Posts
    3,052

    Im not sure jeff

    I remember your fittings failure thread - and I would hope they changed vendors
    for those -

    P Y Chen has stated that a lot of previous work practices have changed now -
    and the vid illustrates why issues arose -

    alarmingly though there have been the odd report of the new cores failing - opinion has it that the same' channels are cut to deep creating stress risers in the core .

    some guy started a post the other day with - " today I bought my first cracked tsuka katana " It was not a cheness sword I must add !! but a higher end piece - someone commented that " So is that the industry standard now ? when do we start paying for snapped blades ?"

    a sorry state of affairs if this is the case .

    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis View Post
    and, just for fun, I split the core... remember that little gap in the first picture?

    Keep in mind, it took me at least 5 "mighty swings" to pop the core apart, fully, and it cracked on the wood, for the most part, not the joint.

    Good glue, bad construction...
    Is that a cold chisel? I'm not really sure why you would post this if it were. D. Freeman is already looking for answers and alternatives to a Cheness tsuka core. So, point taken.

    But if this is a cold chisel, even a solid block of wood will not stand up to it.
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    north east England
    Posts
    3,052

    Cheness bare blades

    I wonder if it would ever come down to cheness just selling their bare blades -
    or indeed make a bare blade only option available for all their models ?


    I for one would like to see Pauls customer care ethics and his quality focus on good blades married to a higher end niche in the market .

    not just a one stop shop for a decent beater - but a proven alternative to mid to high end chens , I know Paul started out to target the lower end of the market - but he has a customer base big enough and his blades have proven themselves to the market to be good , sound cutters .


    Just a thought


    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  9. #34
    What I see as a greater issue than perhaps the same' routing is too deep is that it's just not done properly in that it extends into the fuchi.

    Could someone finally explain how improper removal can crack the tsuka?

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    11,760
    Quote Originally Posted by J. Hedgespeth View Post
    Did you take this up with Paul to find out why the fittings are not what they are advertised as being?
    Yes, I did. He took one set of fittings and was testing them...

    he says he's found the fittings he has to be brass, yet I took a mapp torch to the ones I had and they melted into a puddle of silver goowhile a control piece of brass and copper did nothing, the brass piece burned, a little, but that was it.
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
    SCHOLA GLADIATORIA
    ______________________________

    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    11,760
    Quote Originally Posted by J. Hedgespeth View Post
    Is that a cold chisel? I'm not really sure why you would post this if it were. D. Freeman is already looking for answers and alternatives to a Cheness tsuka core. So, point taken.

    But if this is a cold chisel, even a solid block of wood will not stand up to it.
    J.,
    I was trying to break the tsuka, I wanted to look inside it and see how they make them, I would hope the cold chisel broke the thing. I tried a bunch of little tippy taps up to the point that the first crack picture was take, because I wanted to see how weak it was at that point.

    After I broke it that way, which I might add was the first place anything gave, I just busted it the rest of the way.

    I did mention that it took a few swings to pop it apart, I am not saying they are of bad construction, I am saying that it broke right on the gap you see in the first picture, which was on the seam.

    The reason I was posting it was to show the inside of the tsuka and the construction, which is similar to the inside and construction of another brand's tsuka core. I am in no way trying to say Paul is selling crap.

    I believe they call it reverse engineering?
    Last edited by Jeff Ellis; 07-21-2007 at 11:48 AM.
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
    SCHOLA GLADIATORIA
    ______________________________

    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis View Post
    Yes, I did. He took one set of fittings and was testing them...

    he says he's found the fittings he has to be brass, yet I took a mapp torch to the ones I had and they melted into a puddle of silver goowhile a control piece of brass and copper did nothing, the brass piece burned, a little, but that was it.
    I would have mailed him back the goo and told him to send me the brass fittings as proof that they exist. Some of these forges have been known to slip inferior/improper/not-to-spec goods into a batch. If Paul is unaware of this, he should know...If he is aware of this...Shame on him!

    Sounds like you got Zinc or a Zinc Alloy!
    Last edited by J. Hedgespeth; 07-21-2007 at 02:59 PM.
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis View Post
    I believe they call it reverse engineering?
    You and Timo could be our "Component Evaluation Technicians".
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    11,760
    Quote Originally Posted by J. Hedgespeth View Post
    I would have mailed him back the goo and told him to send me the brass fittings as proof that they exist. Some of these forges have been known to slip inferior/improper/not-to-spec goods into a batch. If Paul is unaware of this, he should know...If he is aware of this...Shame on him!

    Sounds like you got Zinc or a Zinc Alloy!
    You know.. I could mail the block of zinc, with the control pieces, and a cd with the mpg on it....

    I'd put up the mpg, but i.. well I guess i could youtube it.. I was a little inebriated at the time of the video, though....
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
    SCHOLA GLADIATORIA
    ______________________________

    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Järvenpää, Finland
    Posts
    3,241
    Quote Originally Posted by J. Hedgespeth View Post
    You and Timo could be our "Component Evaluation Technicians".
    Keep 'em coming, my chisels are hot for some tsuka splitting action!!!

    Jeff, I just saw your picture of the claimed "brass" fittings and I think I've seen 'em somewhere before. I'll get back to the subject tomorrow. I hope I'm wrong..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis View Post
    You know.. I could mail the block of zinc, with the control pieces, and a cd with the mpg on it....

    I'd put up the mpg, but i.. well I guess i could youtube it.. I was a little inebriated at the time of the video, though....
    I can see it now.. "Drunken Internet-geek destroys priceless katana fittings!" Do it!
    Last edited by Timo Qvintus; 07-21-2007 at 03:16 PM.
    Certified nerd; if you need an Excel sheet or an AutoCAD drawing done, just drop me a PM!

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis View Post
    I was a little inebriated at the time of the video, though....
    You had a bottle of alcohol and a bottle of MAPP?

    Good thing you at least had the torch turned the right way...You could have melted into a pile of goo yourself!
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Quote Originally Posted by Timo Qvintus View Post
    Keep 'em coming, my chisels are hot for some tsuka splitting action!!!
    I think you are manifesting your ancient heritage into full bloom Timo!
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nipmuc USA
    Posts
    12,030
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinT View Post
    What I see as a greater issue than perhaps the same' routing is too deep is that it's just not done properly in that it extends into the fuchi.

    Could someone finally explain how improper removal can crack the tsuka?
    I may be partly an origin of this theory and I will say again, my next would be my first. When I read about folk whanging away on tsuba with rubber mallets, my eyes roll back in my head. Granted, the fuchi and seppa will help spread the load a little but misdirected and inefficient use of energy is just that. I can easily "see" impact on a lever (the tsuba) tansmitting undue force on one side of the tsuka and causing a split. Using a soft mallet really just compounds the "maybe they just don't get it" factor.

    Sure, it's just as likely they are getting damaged on installation but I just have not seen an effort on this board to really stress using a nuki and hard mallet to dislodge a tsuka. Much more often I read of folk not using the proper tools, if needed. Compound it all by the philosophy of having the customer being responsible for quality control and them having less experience than even I do.

    Lots of softer blows with leverage acting against the purpose vs good direct force to get things moving. Seems like a pretty simple concept to understand. This may sound mean and condescending but a lot of beginners don't have much of a clue when faced with wanting to take a katana apart. Let alone what rust is, why oil can be good thing, sharpening, etc. None of this even addressing the issue of the other side of the lever driving the seppa, then habaki, up into the machi.

    How many would pop right off if the better methods were used?

    Sorry for the sidebar but I felt Kevin deserved an answer. This has been just my take on it.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; I'm remembering one person speaking of quite some time tapping all around the tsuba and eating up a rubber mallet

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    11,760
    Here's the link

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=-P2khREkvD4

    you can see the kashira turn silver as the heat hits it...
    I like swords.

    ______________________________
    SCHOLA GLADIATORIA
    ______________________________

    If you want to climb a mountain, begin at the top.

    "Integrity, justice, courage, and action - without these, a person is of no consequence." - Don Nelson

    learn the way to preserve rather than destroy.
    avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill.
    for all life is precious, not one can be replaced.

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Ellis View Post
    Here's the link

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=-P2khREkvD4

    you can see the kashira turn silver as the heat hits it...
    WOW! That melted fast! Even MAPP would take time. I would definitely guess it was zinc or zinc alloy. Probably, the plating, antiquing and protective coatings, if any, is what you saw burning away.
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    134
    I have an older style tsuka for my Cheness wakazashi and it is split on the glue seam. I have never cut with it. I don't think cutting channels into the tsukas to better fit the same would make them stronger.
    Of course it's hot! It just came out of a 350 degree oven!

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    North East England
    Posts
    2,635
    Quote Originally Posted by J. Hedgespeth View Post
    WOW! That melted fast! Even MAPP would take time. I would definitely guess it was zinc or zinc alloy. Probably, the plating, antiquing and protective coatings, if any, is what you saw burning away.

    Jeff's test tends to indicate the use of pot metal as the casting medium Cheness supplier used for their kashira in this instance. IMHO a pretty poor material's choice for parts used on a sword supposedly intended for swordsmanship practise and tameshigiri.

    More so when intended for use by beginners who can often tend to be a little rough around the edges when it comes to sword handling.

    Britannia / pot metal tends to be a budget alternative when producing cheap castings and melts at lower temps than lead, so another test (For those without blow torches) could involve placing the parts in an old saucepan / ladle and heating them over a stove.

    -----

    Whilst agreeing that budget swords can be an excellent way of introducing people to JSA, I feel that too many corners are being cut during the production process. Existing standards should be raised, before a catastrophic parts failure leads to serious injury or death.
    Careful thought, consideration & communication is well worth the effort and end result.

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Stonebridge View Post
    Jeff's test tends to indicate the use of pot metal as the casting medium Cheness supplier used for their kashira in this instance.

    Zinc is the primary component of pot metal.
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    North East England
    Posts
    2,635
    Quote Originally Posted by J. Hedgespeth View Post
    Zinc is the primary component of pot metal.
    I know , but isn't it sometimes just as easy to offer a few naming alternatives for the zinc alloys used during the manufacture process?
    Careful thought, consideration & communication is well worth the effort and end result.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    649
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Stonebridge View Post
    I know , but isn't it sometimes just as easy to offer a few naming alternatives for the zinc alloys used during the manufacture process?
    I suppose...I just never really considered zinc much good for anything more than batteries.
    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares, usually end up plowing for those who don't" :Benjamin Franklin

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •