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Thread: Cheness shobu zukuri

  1. #1

    Cheness shobu zukuri

    Just been on Cheness' web site and seen a shobu zukuri variant in there 9260 line. It looks nice. I like the 'Ayame' with the shinogi traveling the length of the blade. Yup. Payday is comming. Gonna have to "forget" the electric bill......again. I suppose it could be worse. Better spent on a sword collection than drugs and alcohol if you ask me.

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    Sorry to say this, but so far I have not seen a single production sword company that has ever pulled off a "shobu" sugata correctly, including the one by Bugei. This one by Cheness is no exception. From what I've learned from some of the older posts here and my own reading, there's just so much more to what makes a shobu than just the tip geometry. I wonder when some of these companies will finally crack open a book and actually attempt learn about some of the things they're trying to make.....
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  3. #3
    Interesting reply. Any you think came close? Bugei's was allright if you ask me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin P. View Post
    Sorry to say this, but so far I have not seen a single production sword company that has ever pulled off a "shobu" sugata correctly, including the one by Bugei. This one by Cheness is no exception. From what I've learned from some of the older posts here and my own reading, there's just so much more to what makes a shobu than just the tip geometry. I wonder when some of these companies will finally crack open a book and actually attempt learn about some of the things they're trying to make.....
    Do you have first-hand experience in production shobu of Cheness, Oni and Bugei (are there others)? If so, how would you compare them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo Qvintus View Post
    Do you have first-hand experience in production shobu of Cheness, Oni and Bugei (are there others)? If so, how would you compare them?
    You would have the Praying Mantis from Hanwei, there was also a model called Sukehiro from Gus, there is one in the classifieds IIRC. There also was one model from Last Legend and I think the Cold Steel warrior "wants" to be a shobu
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo Qvintus View Post
    Do you have first-hand experience in production shobu of Cheness, Oni and Bugei (are there others)? If so, how would you compare them?
    I've handled the Oni and Bugei and MartialArtSwords versions of "shobu". The less said about the Oni, the better... just all around poor quality (polish, balance, etc.), but you get what you pay for. The Bugei and MAS are better, but Bugei has much better fittings and materials. The only thing about the Bugei, I felt the blade was just much too hefty for anything other than tameshigiri and certainly not for prolonged exercise, although some people might feel differently. Despite the pricetag, MAS had surprisingly poor fittings and awkward saya, etc. The alleged hand-polish wasn't very good either. But both have the same flaw in that the makers seem to think that the shobu sugata only needs to be characterized by the last 3~4 inches of the blade. From what I've gathered, the blade's edge needs to be a continuous curve/taper toward the tip beginning from the base (at the machi), and that's just one of the features. The production/imitations of shobu all seem to be built just like shinogi-zukuri until the last bit at the tip. Some previous posters have commented that the Bugei's shobu is exactly like the regular Hanwei W&T minus the yokote. Well, having seen the two side-by-side, I have to disagree... but still, the difference isn't enough to make the Bugei version a "true" shobu in my opinion.

    But please note that I'm still just a n00b and these are just my limited observations as a beginner. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm way off. Just my opinion.
    REAL Star Wars fans HATE Star Wars (and Lucas)... but LOVE the idea.

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    I took a quick surfing session; I couldn't find the LL shobu, so that's not included, and I don't think Gus' work should be compared to these.. These are my first-impressions, and I'm a relative newbie to this topic, so my opinions should be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

    PC "Praying Mantis" looks exactly like a shinogi-zukuri without a counter-polished kissaki.. It even has a regular bo-hi!


    Bugei shobu; my first impression is that it looks like o-kissaki shinogi-zukuri with a poorly shaped ko-shinogi, and no yokote.


    Oni Shobu; what Benjamin said really shows here; the edge doesn't taper until the last bit. Shinogi/ko-shinogi looks actually better than on the previous two, IMO.


    MAS Flame katana is supposed to be shobu zukuri, but looks like it has the same sugata as PC Mantis:


    Cheness shobu "Kurome": sugata looks a bit like a mix of Oni Shobu and Bugei Shobu?


    Cheness shobu "Ayame": the only one where the shinogi actually extends fully into the kissaki; but again, the general geometry is out of whack. Nice looking kissaki, IMO.
    Last edited by Timo Qvintus; 10-30-2007 at 06:09 AM.
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    The last one looks more like Shobu. The the best I've ever seen was on Keith Larman's website - a nihonto. Not beefy but definitely Iris leaf.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat Rous View Post
    The last one looks more like Shobu. The the best I've ever seen was on Keith Larman's website - a nihonto. Not beefy but definitely Iris leaf.
    You wouldn't happen to refer to this one;
    http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/...m&g2_itemId=51

    Now that thing is gorgeous!! I've had it bookmarked for almost a year, I never get bored looking at it..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo Qvintus View Post
    You wouldn't happen to refer to this one;
    http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/...m&g2_itemId=51

    Now that thing is gorgeous!! I've had it bookmarked for almost a year, I never get bored looking at it..
    Well, I think it resembles the cheness model quite a lot, the only difference is that the Japanese blade is more heavily etched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogdan M. View Post
    Well, I think it resembles the cheness model quite a lot, the only difference is that the Japanese blade is more heavily etched


    For reference, here's what a mukansa-level swordsmith thinks shobu should look like..

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  12. #12
    Differences in the tip of a Shobu vs. Shinogi are plain to see. Benjamin mentioned differences in the blade body itself (which I cannot distinguish from the pictures linked to above), would someone kindly care to elaborate?

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    Here's some Iris leaves!
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Pogue View Post
    Differences in the tip of a Shobu vs. Shinogi are plain to see. Benjamin mentioned differences in the blade body itself (which I cannot distinguish from the pictures linked to above), would someone kindly care to elaborate?

    Blake
    Strictly 2-dimensionally speaking, taper of shobu blade begins very early, if not at hamachi. From Richard Stein's website:



    I'm pretty sure that there's more differences when you pop into 3-D world, but since I have no access to shobu-blades (modern or antique) I'll leave that to more knowledgeable people..
    Last edited by Timo Qvintus; 10-30-2007 at 10:47 AM.
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    Yepp, and judging by that beautiful Japanese example, the curve accelerates towards the tip, the tip is not just a simple circle sector like it was for shinogi zukuri, it's a fragment of parabole (or was it hyperbole?)
    Against ignorance, gods themselves struggle in vain.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Timo Qvintus View Post


    For reference, here's what a mukansa-level swordsmith thinks shobu should look like..



    Got Hamon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo Qvintus View Post
    You wouldn't happen to refer to this one;
    http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/...m&g2_itemId=51

    Now that thing is gorgeous!! I've had it bookmarked for almost a year, I never get bored looking at it..
    That's the one - I have it saved on my work laptop as "Ultimate Shobu". That's higher res than my copy - cheers!

    Bogdan, the one above has more of a "diamond" cross section than shinogi zhukuri - I think of those as more "elongated-Kite".

    The Shobu tip always reminds me of a Beak.
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    http://jswords.com/detail_katana03B.html

    This one is not Japanese made, but it's a replica of a Japanese antique. 9mm thick
    Against ignorance, gods themselves struggle in vain.

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    tar and feather me for saying it

    but I like the cheness Ayame' shobu the best of the lot ( apart from the nihonto of course )

    At least the geometry looks some ways towards being correct - I'll second Timo's vote for its nice kissaki as well .

    as the shinogi has its high or low shinogi the shobu is more of a diamond shaped cross section ,

    guys used to polish out the yokote of hanwei W & T and call it a shobu - they totally missed the point ( pun intended )

    Mick
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael wilson View Post
    but I like the cheness Ayame' shobu the best of the lot ( apart from the nihonto of course )
    Heh, I'm not a big fan of shobu myself, but I feel the same, with the bugei blade coming second. Too bad the polish on the cheness is, well, cheap, otherwise it would make a really good looking blade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael wilson View Post
    I like the cheness Ayame' shobu the best of the lot ( apart from the nihonto of course )
    me too; too bad the hamon is fake, one of these might have looked pretty nice hybrid-polished if it was real..

    I'd need to see cross-sections or handle the blades to really pick a definite "winner", though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael wilson View Post
    but I like the cheness Ayame' shobu the best of the lot ( apart from the nihonto of course )

    At least the geometry looks some ways towards being correct - I'll second Timo's vote for its nice kissaki as well .

    as the shinogi has its high or low shinogi the shobu is more of a diamond shaped cross section ,

    guys used to polish out the yokote of hanwei W & T and call it a shobu - they totally missed the point ( pun intended )

    Mick

    I'll, uh, fifth that as well I guess. it does have the best shape, though obviously in production sword limitations.

    It seems these days everyone calls any blade without a defined yokote a "shobu zukuri" blade.
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    I spoke to a Nihonto collector last year and he said that surprisingly, there were Shobus made that were very long but quite light - the diamond cross-section made them nice and strong but they were quite agile. I'd love to see an example of those.

    Shobu is my favourite shape but the production ones aren't really what I'm after and there aren't many examples of nihonto I've seen.

    So, if you've got pictures - post 'em!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat Rous View Post
    Shobu is my favourite shape but the production ones aren't really what I'm after and there aren't many examples of nihonto I've seen.

    So, if you've got pictures - post 'em!
    Rick's work, an orishigane shobu..


    Just do an advanced search on SFI; "shobu" in "titles only", that brings up quite a few custom pieces (RickB, HC, ADC..)
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    I already have all the modern ones saved - it's the Nihonto I want. One day, I'll get one made if I can find the right balanced picture.
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