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Thread: Cheness shobu zukuri

  1. #26
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    I will probably get the ayame' shobu from cheness to round off a collection of various sughata in production swords -

    I would like to see the LL shobu if its out there , are people wrongly mistaking the bear geometry of some LL lines as shobu zukuri ?

    if I remember rightly the bear competition cutter had no yokote and o - kissaki but it was still only a shinogi zukuri if a tad none traditional .

    Do dynasty forge have a shobu line ? if not they should .

    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael wilson View Post
    I would like to see the LL shobu if its out there , are people wrongly mistaking the bear geometry of some LL lines as shobu zukuri ?

    if I remember rightly the bear competition cutter had no yokote and o - kissaki but it was still only a shinogi zukuri if a tad none traditional .
    I saw it advertised on some sites as a shobu, that's why I mentioned it.
    Anyway, LL is pretty much over the hill right now. The only times I hear it mentioned is when people talk about how they are waiting for more than 6 months for their order to arrive.
    Against ignorance, gods themselves struggle in vain.

  3. #28
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    I will probably get the ayame' shobu from cheness to round off a collection of various sughata in production swords -

    I would like to see the LL shobu if its out there , are people wrongly mistaking the bear geometry of some LL lines as shobu zukuri ?

    if I remember rightly the bear competition cutter had no yokote and o - kissaki but it was still only a shinogi zukuri if a tad none traditional .

    Do dynasty forge have a shobu line ? if not they should .

    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  4. #29
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    <_< Here to spam for my love on the new shobu zukuri blade from Cheness! xP Shobu Zukuri is my favorite type of style, and when I saw the new line on Cheness, it almost made me regret buying my new 9260 TH wakizashi (Which I love to death, and I only recieved it in the mail a week ago) I don't regret it though YAY! Either way, I love you Cheness!

  5. #30
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    I have both the Bugei and LL takeoshi. Please dont compare these fine cutting machines to the beater class cheness and other brands.

    I bought a cheness to use while I was recovering from an elbow operation. It is a hunk of junk, and Im glad Im done with it. Id sell it to someone, but Id be ashamed to put my name on the box.
    "Silly Caucasian Girl, likes to play with Samurai swords"

  6. #31
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    a big up for cheness 9260 'blades'

    All due respect Lovebell I share a lot of your sentiments about cheness but I will stand behind their 9260 range though -

    just because a blade has a $300 price tag does not qualify it as crapola - indeed ive handled several of the 9260 blades and yes
    they do need a full remount IMO to instill 100% confidence in me .

    I have every reason to believe the 9260 shobu will be just as hardy
    as the rest of the 9260 line .

    I think we can all acknowledge the superiority of the Bugei shobu
    but I will reserve judgement on the LL shobu is its such an unknown quantity to me .
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  7. #32
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    It's just a matter of perspective I guess. One could argue that both Hanwei and Bugei swords are, from a traditional nihonto perspective, just junk.

    No need to get too attached to a brand Lovebell, all "brands" have their goods and bads
    Against ignorance, gods themselves struggle in vain.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovebell Forrest View Post
    I have both the Bugei and LL takeoshi. Please dont compare these fine cutting machines to the beater class cheness and other brands.

    I bought a cheness to use while I was recovering from an elbow operation. It is a hunk of junk, and Im glad Im done with it. Id sell it to someone, but Id be ashamed to put my name on the box.
    To quote the Human Torch; "Flame on!"

    Quote Originally Posted by michael wilson View Post
    I think we can all acknowledge the superiority of the Bugei shobu..
    No, we all can't. Not me, at least. I need more than a price-tag and fancy koshirae to convince me. Based purely on pictures, and the track record of 9260 blade (note: BLADES, not the koshirae), I'd take Cheness Ayame over Bugei Shobu any day of the week for a user-blade (given that I'd first re-fit it, LOL). Again, remember that my opinion is based purely on the pictures, I'd need to handle the blades myself to make a more educated decision, but I see no reason for recognizing something as superior because it looks nice. None of us has handled a Cheness shobu, so no-one can really tell at this time which shobu (I'm referring to all of the above) would really be the best and by what criteria.
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  9. #34
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    For what the Shobu was designed to do. Cleave armour. The Bugei, has the grith needed to do the job.

    Timo. I would say you and others need to try one out before saying any beater will come close to doing what the Bugei can.

    remember that my opinion is based purely on the pictures Where my opinion was not.


    Bogdan my Master, who tests for Hanwei would disagree with you. He owns blades that cost as much as my house (or more). Yet still practices daily with his blade given to him by Paul Chen.

    Further more, I see the Cheness doesnt even bother to post lengths or wieghts of this blade. It looks the about the size of my LL, but way smaller than the Bugei.
    Last edited by Lovebell Forrest; 11-02-2007 at 02:31 PM.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovebell Forrest View Post
    For what the Shobu was designed to do. Cleave armour. The Bugei, has the grith needed to do the job.

    Timo. I would say you and others need to try one out before saying any beater will come close to doing what the Bugei can.
    I'm not implying that Bugei Shobu doesn't get the job done, I'm simply stating that none of us has seen a Cheness shobu in real life (or has someone? if so, please post a review!) so we can't tell if it performs better or worse, or at all.
    Last edited by Timo Qvintus; 11-02-2007 at 02:35 PM.
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  11. #36
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    Pardon me... but cleave armor? I thought swords were supposed to take advantage of weak-points in armor (at joints, etc.)... at most piercing, but not actually to cut through them...? Anyway, I have hard time believing that shobu were all beefy blades throughout history, even if it began that way initially.

    Mat Rous asked for picture of nihonto of shobu.

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  12. #37
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    And... one more...

    REAL Star Wars fans HATE Star Wars (and Lucas)... but LOVE the idea.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovebell Forrest View Post
    For what the Shobu was designed to do. Cleave armour. The Bugei, has the grith needed to do the job.
    Hmm I think you're consfusing things a bit. The best bugei blades seem to have a esign inspired by the mid kamakura period (I like that design btw) when samurai wore heavy armour, the heaviest in istory.

    But the swords were meant to withstand the impact with heavy armour, not to cleave through it. What you could cut was actually the wrist, or you could thrust at the throat or at the arm pit. You could accasionally wack the helmet of your opponent and get him unconscious, but you wouldn't atually cut it.

    From this point of view I don't know if bugei blades are more resilient that cheness, because of the different heat treatment. Unless somebody goes testing bugei blades against armour. Have you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovebell Forrest View Post
    Bogdan my Master, who tests for Hanwei would disagree with you. He owns blades that cost as much as my house (or more). Yet still practices daily with his blade given to him by Paul Chen.
    I bet Paul Cen can make some fine blades. I like some of the Hanwei products quite a lot. I also know he can make crappy designs at times. Just look at the last perormance series: extra wide extra flat swords that would not withstand much of any tipe of armour... Grasscutters. That's why I say don't get hooked up on the brand, look at the sword.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovebell Forrest View Post
    Further more, I see the Cheness doesnt even bother to post lengths or wieghts of this blade. It looks the about the size of my LL, but way smaller than the Bugei.
    Funny you should say that, I searched for a few months to find measurements of bugei blades. They never tell the kasane, and the length of the nakago on their site is 4 years old, eversince they adapt the length of the nakago at the size of the tsuka.
    Anyway, they're just brands, don't get attached to them too much. Sometimes make good products, sometimes bad. What you need to consider if if they do what you need and if they are worth the money they're asking.
    Last edited by Bogdan M.; 11-03-2007 at 02:46 AM.
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  14. #39
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    rewind

    and lets all back up a bit

    LL , Bugei , hanwei , Cheness - all have their merits and their fans no ones going to chnge anyone elses opinion of that now are they?

    might be the 9260 could take more abuse than a bugei shobu , the quality of the bugei sword would be more than a few clicks above the cheness , and thats koshirea quality pre-shipping inspection and build quality .

    methinks the cheness ayame' shobu 'might' be a sleeper - a treasure of a blade hidden in with poo cack koshirea - I know the tenchi and shura blades qualify for sleeper status from owning and using one .

    personally I would pass on the Bugei - purely because I doubt I could handle such a big blade effectively rendering it of little practical use to me .

    I do want to add an ayame to my collection - even though I had swore off production katana back in June - damn those sword makers

    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  15. #40
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    I've said it before and I'll say it again. I wouldn't ho a garden with a cheness blade. Reardless of 9260 o what ever "spring" steel they are pushing. It is all substandard junk that is at best an approximation of real swords. Much akin to putting a ferrari body on a fiero. Still junk, might be better looking, but still junk.

    Do we need to rehash all the post about one size fits all tsuka, batch heat treating etc...

    Now before all the flames and me being called a snob or bashing cheness... Fine whatever... I don't own a tool I don't trust. I don't buy something because "well part (a) is ok, you know part (a) is really what counts, never mind that I need to replace parts (b-through-z), nope don't think so... can't convince me its a good idea, no guarantees that any parts out of the whole thing are worth a damn. Why spnd the man hours trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

    Yes Bugei are production blades, but lets see they have people in volved like keith larman and james williams, swords are inspected etc... no I don't any bugei blades either. Will I? Probably not.

    And Mick....thought you were getting to the point where you'd know better

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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl J View Post
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. I wouldn't ho a garden with a cheness blade. Reardless of 9260 o what ever "spring" steel they are pushing. It is all substandard junk that is at best an approximation of real swords. Much akin to putting a ferrari body on a fiero. Still junk, might be better looking, but still junk.

    Do we need to rehash all the post about one size fits all tsuka, batch heat treating etc...

    Now before all the flames and me being called a snob or bashing cheness... Fine whatever... I don't own a tool I don't trust. I don't buy something because "well part (a) is ok, you know part (a) is really what counts, never mind that I need to replace parts (b-through-z), nope don't think so... can't convince me its a good idea, no guarantees that any parts out of the whole thing are worth a damn. Why spnd the man hours trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

    Yes Bugei are production blades, but lets see they have people in volved like keith larman and james williams, swords are inspected etc... no I don't any bugei blades either. Will I? Probably not.

    And Mick....thought you were getting to the point where you'd know better

    -Karl
    Why not just call for a ban of production sword discussion on SFI..

    FWIW, it's not replacing parts b-z, more like w-z. Like buying a car with bad tires that you're gonna swap. And you know what, some of us actually do it for fun. As a hobby. I know I do.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl J View Post
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. I wouldn't ho a garden with a cheness blade. Reardless of 9260 o what ever "spring" steel they are pushing. It is all substandard junk that is at best an approximation of real swords. Much akin to putting a ferrari body on a fiero. Still junk, might be better looking, but still junk.

    Do we need to rehash all the post about one size fits all tsuka, batch heat treating etc...

    Now before all the flames and me being called a snob or bashing cheness... Fine whatever... I don't own a tool I don't trust. I don't buy something because "well part (a) is ok, you know part (a) is really what counts, never mind that I need to replace parts (b-through-z), nope don't think so... can't convince me its a good idea, no guarantees that any parts out of the whole thing are worth a damn. Why spnd the man hours trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

    Yes Bugei are production blades, but lets see they have people in volved like keith larman and james williams, swords are inspected etc... no I don't any bugei blades either. Will I? Probably not.

    And Mick....thought you were getting to the point where you'd know better

    -Karl
    For what it's worth I agree mostly. I honestly would never seek to own a Cheness blade for the most part. I've had a few that were made by the same forge but sold through Kris Cutlery, and they were actually pretty decent, in fact they had some interesting hamon patterns for such a low price. But going through the time and effort and money fixing one up probably isn't worth it.

    However I don't simply mock the blades because they aren't custom quality. I wouldn't call them approximations of swords, I would just call them low tier swords. Approximations would be stainless steel blades without any shaping whatsoever with plastic fittings. Cheness blades have the right ideas but skimp on quality materials and have modernly produced blades.

    To avoid car analogies, I'll move into food. They're more like fast food, meant for the masses. Most people don't have the time, or even the money, to eat out at fancy restaurants all the time. Paul Chen and Dynasty Forge blades are like quality eating places such as a Pick Up Stix or various other eateries. Not fast food, not a fine dining establishment, but a quality meal at a reasonable price. You could go to panda express and get a similar meal for half the price, but its been sitting under a heat lamp for a while. Custom blades are like a nice steakhouse or another fine dining establishment. You are required to wear formal clothing. The meal (custom blade) costs 10 times what fast food costs IF you don't order wine (folded or tamahagane steel, so make that 20 times), and you have to leave a huge tip (custom koshirae). The tip alone will be more expensive than the fast food order.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogdan M. View Post
    Hmm I think you're consfusing things a bit. The best bugei blades seem to have a esign inspired by the mid kamakura period (I like that design btw) when samurai wore heavy armour, the heaviest in istory.

    From this point of view I don't know if bugei blades are more resilient that cheness, because of the different heat treatment. Unless somebody goes testing bugei blades against armour. Have you?



    I bet Paul Cen can make some fine blades. I like some of the Hanwei products quite a lot. I also know he can make crappy designs at times. Just look at the last perormance series: extra wide extra flat swords that would not withstand much of any tipe of armour... Grasscutters. That's why I say don't get hooked up on the brand, look at the sword.



    Stolen from Bugei's website:

    Here is a warriors blade that hearkens back to the 14th century, a strong beautiful blade in the classic Shobu Zukuri style. This sword is an exceptional cutting blade as the samurai proved against the Mongol invaders where this style of sword proved more effective against the Mongol armor. This style of blade is believed to have evolved from the naginata/nagamaki that were renowned for their cutting power.

    But then who trusts advertising

    Unless somebody goes testing bugei blades against armour. Have you?

    Not with my Shobu, But my LL yes. Ive cut all kinds of things. It has a better warranty :-D


    My Master does not like my Shobu, or my Sensei's Dragonfly.

    Considering I own 3 different companies swords, and no two form teh same company, Id say Im an equal opportunity cutter

    To each his own I say!
    Last edited by Lovebell Forrest; 11-03-2007 at 05:13 PM.
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  19. #44
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    Ben - thanks for that. The second picture with the close up of the tip, clearly illustrates the classic Shobu sugata. Love it!

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  20. #45
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    Smile suitably chastised mate

    And Mick....thought you were getting to the point where you'd know better

    hehhehe - hey karl - I do mate , I do -

    always a pleasure to get called out by a mate

    I'll quantify my s#@t for y'all - for a beater , something to whack the hell out of cardboard tubes cheness 9260 swords do this real well , about as well as cold steel series katana -

    is the quality of the koshirea abysmal ? - hell yes .

    would I trust the things out of the box - hell no .

    and to anyone who doubts the truth of my koshirea crapola statement go check out les yeichs youtube cheness fittings test vid - the 'brass' fuchi starts to bubble and melt as soon as heat is applied - not good and downright dangerous .

    but for beaters the blades are sound .

    hope ive redeemed myself Karl LOL - my fault for not getting my exuberance in context .

    fortunately my only cheness experience has been a good one -
    I got a cheness shirasaya shura blade that a guy who knows what he's doing had totally remounted from the blade out over -

    I would buy an ayame' shobu
    - but only as a decor piece - I wouldnt spend the cash on it a full remount would cost to make it useable to my satisfaction.

    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  21. #46
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    quality standards

    heres a quote I found on a youtube comment from a sword test vid -

    "Mr Chen ( of cheness) informed me that these issues of tsuka failure only occur on about 1% of the katana that leave the factory for distribution

    Ok I may have paraphrased it slightly - but is this an acceptable
    amount ?

    1% does not seem like much at all does it ? Its only like a 1/100th of something , right ?

    but then again for every 1000 swords that leave the factory 10 will fail at the tsuka - starts to get a little bit dodgy doesnt it ?

    Is a 1% percent failure rate acceptable when failure may mean
    injury or even accidental death?

    food for thought

    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael wilson View Post
    "Mr Chen ( of cheness) informed me that these issues of tsuka failure only occur on about 1% of the katana that leave the factory for distribution
    Run for cover!!!
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  23. #48
    Christ, karl, you'd swear production blades are gonna shatter upon impact with the air by the way you talk. Granted the production blades can't compare to custom jobs, but even custom makers f@#k up every know and then. As for production blades and the peeps that produce them....well we peeps from Philly have a saying...even a blind squirrel finds an acorn eventually. I have, on occasion, considered parting with a kidney and a third of my liver in exchange for the capitol neccessary to by a nice custom blade.

  24. #49
    Good grief. Do you work for Bugei? Bugei, Bugei, Bugei. Yes, we all know you have a Bugei. Good for you. You can stop now.

    And, by Bugei saying in their advertising copy that it was designed to cleave armour does not mean that it was designed to cleave armour. It just makes people go "ooooooo!" and buy the blade.

    I am so sick of the blade snobbery on this site. It is offered in the guise of education, but many times it is just plain snobbery.


    -P


    Quote Originally Posted by Lovebell Forrest View Post
    For what the Shobu was designed to do. Cleave armour. The Bugei, has the grith needed to do the job.

    Timo. I would say you and others need to try one out before saying any beater will come close to doing what the Bugei can.

  25. #50
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    P. Gallick

    Certainly you have been around long enough to see what is really just another hash slinging session. I see it going on at other "more friendly" sites as well, so I honestly don't understand what may seem to some as an outburst from you that illicicts your opinion of others here as snobs and the forum a host to nothing but.

    Let me put this in my perspective for you. I see a thread initiated by you that has a second post asking it be deleted, In wiondering about what other thread you refered to, I find this one, where your only interest in it is apparently displeasure at the conversation amongst the usual suspects. From what I see in it (having now read it all) it is pretty harmless. Opinionated at times but pretty harmless. Actually a lot more cordial than many katana threads have been. Jocular and jovial even

    So,,,,, in the ineterests of world peace, i'll just say for all to play nice and not pick on the cheaper swords lines too much(although it all seems pretty chummy to me).

    Maybe there was a better way to express you feelings about Lovebell's commentary but it seems more like you'd rather throw a blanket on the whole forum with your thought that indicts the whole community of what you feel is injustice.

    I just don't know. ?8^)

    Cordially

    Glen

    Quote Originally Posted by P. Gallick View Post
    Good grief. Do you work for Bugei? Bugei, Bugei, Bugei. Yes, we all know you have a Bugei. Good for you. You can stop now.

    And, by Bugei saying in their advertising copy that it was designed to cleave armour does not mean that it was designed to cleave armour. It just makes people go "ooooooo!" and buy the blade.

    I am so sick of the blade snobbery on this site. It is offered in the guise of education, but many times it is just plain snobbery.


    -P
    Last edited by Glen C.; 11-06-2007 at 05:56 PM.

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