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Thread: Cheness shobu zukuri

  1. #51
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    As for the 1% defective rate, I find that somewhat hard to believe given my own experience with them. I have purchased over the last year four of their 9260 blades in various lengths and configurations for backyard cutting. One had an acceptably-decent tsuka(30" nagasa Shura) with decent tolerances and was as easily disassembled and snugly-fit as any Hanwei I own...but the other three(21" Shura Ko, 28" Tenchi and 28" DT Kaze) all had cracked, $hitbag tsukas and two of them even came with broken "brass" kashira(ito pulled too tight for knot). Call me nuts, too, because regardless of this, I still like their blades more than any other at that price point for backyard cutting. Why run the risk of marring, scratching or God forbid BENDING one of your precious differentially tempered swords when you can get all the jiggly jollies you desire thrashing a $225 beater?
    "Without a sign his sword the brave man draws,
    And asks no omen but his country’s cause."

    ---The Iliad of Homer, Book xii, Line 283


    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner; Liberty is a well-armed lamb."
    ---Benjamin Franklin

  2. #52
    I was, perhaps a bit harsh in picking on Lovebell. I apologize. I say the following in frustration of how certain individuals post on this forum:

    You are right, I have been on this forum long enough to recognize another hash slinging session on beater/premium production swords.

    Yes, this thread is pretty harmless. There was no name calling, etc. However, you are also correct when you say it is by the usual suspects. I see these usual suspects and they are always quick to bash the lesser swords on this forum. I have seen many posts from certain people in this thread that never pass up an opportunity to say "look at me! I have a Bugei! or [insert high-end sword here]!" Well, that's great. It is a very nice sword. I would love to own one myself. But enough, already. Yes, we all know that person owns a Bugei because they can't seem to shut up about it. Give it a rest already!

    There are many people on this forum who are well educated about swords and many more, including myself, that seek more than they know already. Saying things like "I wouldn't hoe a garden with a Cheness," or "I would be ashamed to put my name on the box" is insulting and haughty. Snobbish. I stand by that. I say that about certain individuals on this forum, not the forum as a whole. This is s superb forum and one of my favorites. It is *much* more civil than many other forums out there.

    Maybe I'm just super-sensitive to snobbish comments. I meant no offense, I just tire of such elitist attitudes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Glen C. View Post
    P. Gallick

    Certainly you have been around long enough to see what is really just another hash slinging session. I see it going on at other "more friendly" sites as well, so I honestly don't understand what may seem to some as an outburst from you that illicicts your opinion of others here as snobs and the forum a host to nothing but.

    Let me put this in my perspective for you. I see a thread initiated by you that has a second post asking it be deleted, In wiondering about what other thread you refered to, I find this one, where your only interest in it is apparently displeasure at the conversation amongst the usual suspects. From what I see in it (having now read it all) it is pretty harmless. Opinionated at times but pretty harmless. Actually a lot more cordial than many katana threads have been. Jocular and jovial even

    So,,,,, in the ineterests of world peace, i'll just say for all to play nice and not pick on the cheaper swords lines too much(although it all seems pretty chummy to me).

    Maybe there was a better way to express you feelings about Lovebell's commentary but it seems more like you'd rather throw a blanket on the whole forum with your thought that indicts the whole community of what you feel is injustice.

    I just don't know. ?8^)

    Cordially

    Glen

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by P. Gallick View Post

    Maybe I'm just super-sensitive to snobbish comments. I meant no offense, I just tire of such elitist attitudes.
    I personally find quite strange of someone being elitist because of an production sword like bugei.
    ----------------------------
    "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." General George S. Patton

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRusso View Post
    I personally find quite strange of someone being elitist because of an production sword like bugei.
    I agree, it's just snobism, no elitism here
    Against ignorance, gods themselves struggle in vain.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by MRusso View Post
    I personally find quite strange of someone being elitist because of an production sword like bugei.
    Good point! Bugei is not the end-all-be-all of the sword.
    Last edited by P. Gallick; 11-07-2007 at 11:32 AM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogdan M. View Post
    I agree, it's just snobism, no elitism here
    We probably all fall into a category of perspectives, one way or another.

    I actually thought Lovebell (and I say this as a long time spectator of the production katana threads) was a Last Legend advocate, if there was a real label that could apply. I'll admit to not following it a great deal the past couple of years but there seems to be an awful lot less of the "is too, is not, mine's better, is not, is too" type bickering.


    Let it all just go back to shobu piejammer guy type sword thingies and if the conversation isn't going your way, pick another channerl, show, thread.

    Timo, you're in charge.:rolleyes" Take it easy on the old farts, ok?

    Cheers

    Hotspur; whatever hidden gems there are seem still to be a matter of the eye of the beholder

  7. #57
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    I might have expressed myself badly. I wasn't aiming at anybody with my joke, what I wanted to point out is just that going with bugei doesn't necessarily mean elitism.

    I don't know Lovebell well enough to qualify her and in any case I consider arguments "ad personam" as a poor way of proving one's point...
    Against ignorance, gods themselves struggle in vain.

  8. #58
    Too true...Bugei is not the messiah of production swords....cuz that distinction goes to MAS!!!! Just kidding. I always considered Bugei to be beginners high end swords. Never really liked Hanwei simply because i got burned badly by their lack of quality control. I've never owned a Dynasty Forge blade so i can't comment on them. Bugei, by the way, is tough as hell to get a sword from as they are almost always sold out. And i've heard some horror stories about Dynasty Forge's customer service. MAS does custom jobs and i was gonna call their reps to see just how custom they go. Imagine a shobu with proper blade geometry made from L6.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogdan M. View Post
    I might have expressed myself badly. I wasn't aiming at anybody with my joke, what I wanted to point out is just that going with bugei doesn't necessarily mean elitism.

    I don't know Lovebell well enough to qualify her and in any case I consider arguments "ad personam" as a poor way of proving one's point...
    Oh, no. I didn't read it that way at all. it's just that we are no longer talking about swords at all and it might as well be a chat room conversation.

    What ever happened to the hairy zuchhinis being everyone's favorite ?8^)

    Ok, you can be in charge until Timo wakes up/logs in.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; what a whacky crew, I tell you what

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Thornton View Post
    MAS does custom jobs and i was gonna call their reps to see just how custom they go. Imagine a shobu with proper blade geometry made from L6.
    Well back to sword talk.

    I think their manager has an account on SFI and they have very reliable service.

    On the other hand, it depends what you mean by "proper geometry". I like their hand polish, but wide blades with thickness between 5-6 mm? Very far from traditional standards... I personally prefer the bugei geometry, although MAS blades have that super life warranty.
    Against ignorance, gods themselves struggle in vain.

  11. #61
    Sorry, guess i should have been a bit more specific. By proper geometry i mean the shinogi traveling the length of the blade, all the way to the tip, as well as the curvature of the blade starting farther down. Take a look at the pics peeps have been posting here and thats what i meant.

  12. #62
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    Ah, I see what you meant.

    But still their geometry is not very traditional. In this thread we said it's something like the praying mantis from hanwei, basically shinogi zukuri without yokote. Take a look here:
    http://www.martialartswords.com/prod...b0c0c9a0f871e5

    I don't think they go as custom as to change that geometry into a traditional shobu, I'm not sure they know how. Anyway, I have asked them sometime ago if they can make an ikubi (shorter) kissaki and they said they wouldn't be confident the result is good. Of course, I appreciated the sincerity, but ikubi kissaki is not a big difference from chu kissaki. This means a proper shobu geometry from their kuroyuri is much harder to obtain IMO.
    Last edited by Bogdan M.; 11-07-2007 at 08:23 PM.
    Against ignorance, gods themselves struggle in vain.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen C. View Post
    Timo, you're in charge. Take it easy on the old farts, ok?
    Me? What'd I do?

    ..except get pre-sale tickets to see Maiden next summer..

    EDIT: see my post on pg.1 of this thread, there's pic of a MAS "shobu"; pretty much shinogi-zukuri without counter-polished kissaki
    Last edited by Timo Qvintus; 11-08-2007 at 05:44 AM.
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  14. #64
    That's their competition cutting geometry, Bog. I think it has a wider plane, similer to the cheness SGC. Not at all traditional. They have traditional style blades, which is what im gonna be getting. I'm gonna order a custom sword. No silver though. I'm a silver invester and i can tell you they are charging $200 for what looks like $30 worth of silver. And i definetly have to have a full black same wrap...cuz once you go black, you never go back!!!

  15. #65
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    I'm giving this old thread a bump since we had such a nice discussion about production-shobu's.. On page#1 I made a comment on how the new Paul Chen "Mantis" looks like. Well, now there are actual items out there and with better pictures is looks quite a bit different!
    http://www.samurai-sword-shop.com/sl...slideshow.html

    I also now have a in-hand picture of Oni's shobu:
    Certified nerd; if you need an Excel sheet or an AutoCAD drawing done, just drop me a PM!

  16. #66
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    Yeah I see what you mean by this pic Timo - its definitely not
    like an iris leaf at all

    BTW - what fender is that in the backgrouind , a strat or a telecaster ?



    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  17. #67
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    What do you think of the PC Mantis? That looks like a bad baby, done in L6 no less. Monster, monster..

    Oh, and it's a strat.
    Certified nerd; if you need an Excel sheet or an AutoCAD drawing done, just drop me a PM!

  18. #68
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    Stratocasters...YEAH BABY!...Got two of "em myself...

  19. #69

    Tele?

    Never seen a tele with a big ol' headstock like that!

  20. #70
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    Thumbs up more of a gibson SG man myself

    nice clear pic of the cheness shobu kissaki in the foreground - the backgrounds so blurry its a miracle my old eyes distinguished any fender headstock at all


    Timo - do you see how the shinogi looks like its going to go all the way up the tip but then you can clearly see a sudden turn off towards the mune resulting almost in a poorly formed ko-shinogi ,

    I wonder if the shobu was rushed into production and if future generations of the cheness shobu will address the premature termination of the shinogi ?

    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  21. #71
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    First things first; it's not a Cheness shobu, but Oni Forge shobu

    Second, that's a Squier Strat, a "budget"-line of Fender's. Although I *HAVE* seen Fender Strats with a headstock this big.
    Certified nerd; if you need an Excel sheet or an AutoCAD drawing done, just drop me a PM!

  22. #72
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    Oni Shobu eh?

    1st time ive seen the kissaki up close - did you get my point about the shinogi termination though ?

    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael wilson View Post
    Oni Shobu eh?

    1st time ive seen the kissaki up close - did you get my point about the shinogi termination though ?

    Mick
    Yup, I see it. The further you look at the blade the less prominent the change is, though. If the shinogi would have terminated at the very tip of the blade it would have looked very nice. Here's another shot of the tip, now with a bit of monouchi to go!
    Attached Images Attached Images  
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timo Qvintus View Post
    First things first; it's not a Cheness shobu, but Oni Forge shobu

    Second, that's a Squier Strat, a "budget"-line of Fender's. Although I *HAVE* seen Fender Strats with a headstock this big.
    Until 1966, Stratocasters had a small headstock. After CBS bought them out, they went to a large headstock 'til 1980 or so when Fender had a major revision of product lines. Tellys have always had that funky looking "tele" headstock.
    Interestingly enough, Squier originally had TWO product lines. (I'm not sure if this is still true or not.) One, the budget line, was made for the U.S. The other, which was meant for the export market (primarily Japan if memory serves me correctly) had much higher quality products. I have one of those Strats I purchased around '85 or so..it's Fiesta Red- one of Fender's cooler custom colors. It has the smaller headstock and the old 4 bolt neck instead of the 3 bolt Microtilt that the Fenders from that time period had.

    On the whole "shobu" subject, has anybody who actually practices JSA used one of these? I saw an antique Shobu when I first started collecting. I would have bought it on the spot except someone had removed the rust off it with a grinder. I've liked them ever since, but I'm guessing your noto and nukitsuke had better be pretty clean if you want to keep your left hand intact.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary S View Post
    On the whole "shobu" subject, has anybody who actually practices JSA used one of these? I saw an antique Shobu when I first started collecting. I would have bought it on the spot except someone had removed the rust off it with a grinder. I've liked them ever since, but I'm guessing your noto and nukitsuke had better be pretty clean if you want to keep your left hand intact.
    I'm a "JSA guy" but I don't practice with shinken yet.. least of all with shobu!

    (well, "least of all with kissaki-moroha" to be precise.. )
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