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Thread: Continental? English Walloon C1650ISH?

  1. #1
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    Continental? English Walloon C1650ISH?

    I am trying to id this

    the possibility exists English Civil war period

    Thoughts

    “Do you know what astonished me most in the world? The inability of force to create anything. In the long run, the sword is always beaten by the spirit.” Napoleon Bonaparte

  2. #2
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    Hey Dom,

    Nice one! Like the thumb ring.....Walloonish it is....think your on the mark time wise..maybe a bit earlier than 1650-ish. Maybe a survivor of the Thirty Years War....

    Is the bowl pierced?

    May have a hint of Swiss influence....

    That could be a keeper


    Cheers,

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Goodwin; 12-29-2007 at 11:04 AM.
    billgoodwin333@yahoo.com

    "I was born for this" - Joan of Arc

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Goodwin View Post

    Is the bowl pierced?
    Hey Bill Happy yule watsit ! Bah humbug!

    the bowl isn't pierced and is solid

    Its a nice piece, as to a keeper lol not sure yet
    “Do you know what astonished me most in the world? The inability of force to create anything. In the long run, the sword is always beaten by the spirit.” Napoleon Bonaparte

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    I think, it's 17th century north-european broadsword, probably german-made. In Sweden and Germany this type of sword is often calls "schwedendegen". Could be from the from the Thirty Years War period.
    Last edited by Ivan B.; 12-30-2007 at 02:31 PM.

  5. #5
    hi. it could also be an austrian. take a look :http://www.razyboard.com/system/more...1286763-0.html or maybe really northgerman :http://www.razyboard.com/system/more...3311525-0.html
    http://www.foren.de/system/user_roedelsbert.html

  6. #6
    Here is a link for a number of walloon hilts: http://www.sfhm.se/templates/pages/A...ge____306.aspx

    Jonathan

  7. #7
    J.G. Hopkins wrote:
    Here is a link for a number of walloon hilts: http://www.sfhm.se/templates/pages/A...ge____306.aspx
    The only Wallone in the on-line link too Armesmuset is: http://www.sfhm.se/templates/pages/A...ge____441.aspx The swords from around 1660 - 1717 are all of the Karolinian hilted types. According to Dr. Seitz the Karolinian hilt is a separate development from the Wallone.
    Wrote Ivan B:
    In Sweden and Germany this type of sword is often calls "schwedendegen".
    The term Schwedendegen originates from what was the Kingdom of Denmark(Denmark/Norway and parts of what is Northern Germany and Southern Sweden today) around 1650. This type of sword was called Schwedendegen as it was to be used against the Swedes and not as some think, because it was a degen used by the Swede's. It is generally accepted that the type was introduced in the Scandinavian countries around 1650. After the 30 year war.
    Arne

  8. #8
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    Walloon?

    This sword seems like it belongs here but is it a walloon? it was advertised as a Northern European horseman's broadsword 1650? It looks to be Passau's running wolf. I know it wouldn't be a mystery if anyone knew but does anyone have any thoughts on cabalistic numbers like 1616? Thanks DavidG.
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    usually it is 1414 which was considered a lucky combination of 7+7+7+7 =1414

    also other numbers to the earlier blades were often numbers important to the sword smiths on a personal level or to commemorate a popular date

    Many of the combinations of the moon and stars etc were to insure luck (moon and star could be Jupiter for luck or venus to make the user beloved) as well as some of the earlier swords having engraved letters to form a spell of protection to the sword user or to cause damage to the enemies

    smiths dates

    the numbers often found on swords by different smiths are

    Joahannes Wundes 1479
    Johannes Keuller 1495
    Meves Berns 1506
    Mathais Wundes 1515
    Peter Munich 1436

    so as you see the so called cabalistic blades might have a totaly different meaning

    Do you have a picture of the Passau wolf on this blade and i can possibly date it more accurately
    Last edited by dominic grant; 01-31-2008 at 02:15 AM. Reason: Forgot to ask for picture
    “Do you know what astonished me most in the world? The inability of force to create anything. In the long run, the sword is always beaten by the spirit.” Napoleon Bonaparte

  10. #10
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    Now I see this sword again.

    Is it a mostly cutting blade? I mean each time I have seen a tip like that without ridges or fullers reaching the point the blades are very thin and flexible and not really apropiate to stab.

    Funny that the walloon hilt is apropiate to so many different blade morphologies requiring different handling...

    Javier
    La vida amable, el enemigo hombre fuerte, ordinario el peligro, natural la defensa, la Ciencia para conseguirla infalible, su estudio forçoso, y el exercicio necessario conviene al que huviere de ser Diestro, no ignore la teorica, para que en la practica, el cuerpo, el braço, y los instrumentos obren lo conveniente a su perfeccion. --Don Luis Pacheco de Narvaez.

  11. #11
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    1616

    Here is a closer view of the wolf, David G
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    1616

    Here is a closer view of the wolf, David G
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Ramos View Post
    Now I see this sword again.

    Is it a mostly cutting blade? I mean each time I have seen a tip like that without ridges or fullers reaching the point the blades are very thin and flexible and not really apropiate to stab.

    Funny that the walloon hilt is apropiate to so many different blade morphologies requiring different handling...

    Javier
    This would've been no use as a staber, it's so light. It's so easy to make this blade fly through the air it must have done serious slicing damage like a straight razor only 31 inches long. DG

  14. #14
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    Each Passau sword smith used a variation of the running wolf mark, obviously this changed from the 13th to the end of the 17th ceuntury

    this one looks very similar to the mark used by Johanes Wundes towards the end of his sword making C1620ish
    “Do you know what astonished me most in the world? The inability of force to create anything. In the long run, the sword is always beaten by the spirit.” Napoleon Bonaparte

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    Dominic. Do you have a reference or website that shows the many Passau wolf marks. When the bladesmiths moved from Passau to Solingen they apparently kept the marks. The Johnson/Wittman book shows a stylized wolf, much like the one on David's blade, attributed to Peter Wiersbergh, Solingen, 1610.

    While browsing through The Gentleman's Magazine, London, 1836, I ran across a catalogue of the Doucean museum that says "A sword of the time of Wm III with the Passau wolf blade marked 1414, a manufactory number often mistaken for the date."
    "Ancora imparo - Michelangelo Buonarotti"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert E. Ozias View Post
    Dominic. Do you have a reference or website that shows the many Passau wolf marks. When the bladesmiths moved from Passau to Solingen they apparently kept the marks. The Johnson/Wittman book shows a stylized wolf, much like the one on David's blade, attributed to Peter Wiersbergh, Solingen, 1610.

    While browsing through The Gentleman's Magazine, London, 1836, I ran across a catalogue of the Doucean museum that says "A sword of the time of Wm III with the Passau wolf blade marked 1414, a manufactory number often mistaken for the date."
    1414 is definetly a cabalistic number as i have seen it on blades from 4 different smiths from different eras

    re the Passau running wolf, variations of it can be seen as far back as the end of the 13th century all the way up to 17th century

    Peter Munsten tried to make the mark his own around C1597 as did Johannes Wundes (1560-1620)

    the first accredited use of the sun, moon, and crescent symbols to a particular European individual i can find is to Peter Munich (1595-1660) (Munch, Munick) even though they were predominately magical symbols and used by many sword makers

    Many of the blades imported into england in the 17th century from Soligen carrid the running wolf and collectively the blades were known as Fuchs (fox) blades the maker predominately being Klemens Horn (1580-1630)

    below pics



    “Do you know what astonished me most in the world? The inability of force to create anything. In the long run, the sword is always beaten by the spirit.” Napoleon Bonaparte

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    Dominic. Thanks so much. That's just what I was looking for. I will print out these pages and include them in one of the books I have on German swords. Ancora imparo.
    "Ancora imparo - Michelangelo Buonarotti"

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert E. Ozias View Post
    Dominic. Thanks so much. That's just what I was looking for. I will print out these pages and include them in one of the books I have on German swords. Ancora imparo.

    no problems Robert, if you pm your email address i can email you some info on Cabalistic markings

    Dom

    ps as to Ancora imparo, me too on a daily basis its part of the fun
    Last edited by dominic grant; 02-02-2008 at 02:40 AM.
    “Do you know what astonished me most in the world? The inability of force to create anything. In the long run, the sword is always beaten by the spirit.” Napoleon Bonaparte

  19. #19
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    Hi Dominic, Is it strickly the style of hilt that makes a Walloon? or are there other characteristics that go along with it? The hilt looks identical to yours only you say yours isn't pierced. In regards to the 1616 in this case if it could be attributed to a maker around the year 1610 or 1620 could it in fact be the year it was made? Thanks for your time, David G

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by David gray View Post
    Hi Dominic, Is it strickly the style of hilt that makes a Walloon? or are there other characteristics that go along with it? The hilt looks identical to yours only you say yours isn't pierced. In regards to the 1616 in this case if it could be attributed to a maker around the year 1610 or 1620 could it in fact be the year it was made? Thanks for your time, David G
    A simple hilt-form comprising of two shell-guards and a knuckle-bow is the dictionary definition but as always there are some variations

    as to 1616 being a makers date it is posible but more probably a date relating to a memorable date for the smith in quetion. However it is highly possible

    these are some of the memorable things in 1616

    January 24 Jacques Le Maire discovers Street Lemaire/Cape Receiver
    February 26 Spanish Inquisition delivers injunction to Galileo
    March 5 Copernicus' "de Revolutionibus" placed on Catholic Forbidden index
    March 20 Walter Raleigh released from Tower of London to seek gold in Guyana
    April 23 Netherlands buys De Briel/Vlissingen/Fort Rammekens from England
    April 30 English King Jacob I leaves Brielle/Vlissingen
    May 3 Treaty of Loudun kills French civil war
    October 25 VOC-ship "The Eendracht" discovers Dirk-Hartogeiland, Australia
    November 20 Bishop Richelieu becomes French minister of Foreign affairs/War


    possibly a personal date or the date the sword was crafted. we may never know
    “Do you know what astonished me most in the world? The inability of force to create anything. In the long run, the sword is always beaten by the spirit.” Napoleon Bonaparte

  21. #21
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    problems sending pictures in emails at the moment

    technology arghh



    “Do you know what astonished me most in the world? The inability of force to create anything. In the long run, the sword is always beaten by the spirit.” Napoleon Bonaparte

  22. #22
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    I saw a Norrbottens museum web page with a Schwedendegen suggesting that the number 1414 could refer to the Bible’s Book of Job 14:14 ”If someone dies will they live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come.”

  23. #23
    I also have a sword from the 1770's with alchemical/astrological symbols on the blade. It's not any language. I checked and it's neither Arabic nor Georgian. The closest I can come to is a form of "theban" which was an 18th century cipher to hide magical writing.
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