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Thread: Where did the Pro forum go ?

  1. #26
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    From what i gather, its not a matter of talent or experience, but a matter of ATTITUDE. Am i right?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remy B View Post
    From what i gather, its not a matter of talent or experience, but a matter of ATTITUDE. Am i right?
    In an overly simplistic and quite sarcastic tone, all I can say in response to that is. DUH!!! You think?

    Several folk have touched on some very salient points here (yes, even you Stephen R.). I had started an all encompassing post yesterday and lost it but other voices (including the original poster) have summed it up quite well.

    I did want to write of a few things though. There are over 2,000 threads in this section alone. I've not read them all but I have been reading here from the start of this format representing SFI. I had read of/in the previous incarnations as well, back to 1999 and some of the Highlander site musings previous to that. Aside from one post I made in this room in 2002, I have not posted to it aside from the past few weeks. What I am saying is that I have respected the intent and mission statement of this subsection.

    It is very frustrating in all the subforums that the prevelance of a fast food, quick serve, PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!! atmosphere seems to grow. It is not so much that the percentage of such inquiry has risen but that the user base has expanded. There are over 30,000 registered users on this venue. In a sense, that is an irrelevant number. There are typically fewer than 100 visible users active on the board at any given time. Reduce that further to the 50 or so that might actually be posting comments. It makes the small number of contrary and contentious posts seem huge. "Well I tried a search and I couldn't find the answer. Can't you just tell me? that would be easier for me!!!" Don't you just want to (virtually) smack some of these upside the head? Yes, attitude can play a big part in anyone's life.

    Not everyone is cut out to answer the same questions time and again. That is what some of the sticky threads are for. It is hopeful to wish that folk would read and reference them. Here is one that was created to be helpful to beginners in bladesmithing/making.

    http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=30311

    I'm going to pin this thread to the head of the forum.


    A tip for searching any site but this one in particular. Go to Google. Type in site:forums.swordforum.com Then add a search term or query. It works with other urls as well.

    Check out and read through the offerings on the front page of this site (if you have not) http://swordforum.com A lot is a bit dated but there is good reaidng (and pictures) there as well.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; One could do worse than reading FAQ sections and sticky threads

  3. #28
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    Seems this subject comes up now and again…..

    I hope I have not bent the rules too far by posting here over the years.
    As my "title" states, I'm an amateur. Although trying to make my first sale. It's quite frustrating. I admire the pros. Those who make a living at it. I couldn’t.

    Anyway, most of my "nuts and bolts" questions have been answered with the search. I have always tried to ask questions that are hard to answer or share something myself that does not seem to have been shared in the past. Even failures, in the hopes of someone piping in to correct my mistakes. It works quite well for me. I try to "give back" what I take when possible.

    One thing I've learned the hard way, is to try and curb my enthusiasm. Apparently It can be an irritant and misinterpreted as boasting/posing, etc. Especially in a faceless forum. If someone is starting to grate and not contribute, I think they should be respectfully alerted to the fact. Same goes for me and folks like me who are not pros.

    You will notice I do not post much here anymore. I try and not over stay my welcome and at the same time help someone if I am able. Jerry
    Barnyard bladesmith, burnt in the front, and frozen in the rear. Comic book metallurgist, too dumb to know that I can't do that.
    "I don't believe in the no-win scenario".. Captain Kirk.

    It's good to be skilled, but better to be talented.
    It's good to be talented, but better to be gifted.
    It's good to be gifted, but best of all to be determined. - Me

    "The precise balance of brains and balls, will ALWAYS trump those who have too much of one, and not enough of the other". - me

  4. #29
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    A note on titles, as it is mentioned elsehwere to contact a moderator. All we can do is pass the request on. In the Welcome thread of this section
    http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=33 are Adrian's thoughts and an email address where such requests can be submitted. However, he has recently taken the stance of a temprorary (or moreso) moratorium on issuance of titles. While this may seem unfair, I would suggest that folk not take the lack of a ball cap or secret handshake as a personal or professional slight. Your work and participation speak for themselves.

    Cordially

    Glen

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen C. View Post
    In an overly simplistic and quite sarcastic tone, all I can say in response to that is. DUH!!! You think?
    I dont see why you are saying this to me... i dont make pointless threads and concider myself to be "in good terms" with the house.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remy B View Post
    I dont see why you are saying this to me... i dont make pointless threads and concider myself to be "in good terms" with the house.
    In sarcastic and overly simplistic manner, I was agreeing with you. DUH?

    Nothing to question, really.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; Nothing to question, really.

  7. #32
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    AH ok then, nevermind! i thought that was a negative thing... sorry, people dont use that "duh" over here so i wouldnt know

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remy B View Post
    From what i gather, its not a matter of talent or experience, but a matter of ATTITUDE. Am i right?
    Correct! I am so bummed I missed the heat of this thread being away on "vacation" for two weeks.
    I dunno. Iron is sort-of the Paris Hilton of metals, and carbon, nickel, chromium silicon, etc. are a bunch of good looking guys she just met at a party. - Al Massey

  9. #34
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    In keeping with the overarching theme of 'warm and friendly', I try to be gentle when pointing out to obvious beginners that there is a huge archive of valuable information here that must be searched before asking questions.

    I'm a semi-pro bladesmith, in that I get paid for some of my work, but I can't make a living from it.

    I hope my attitude is good.
    "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art."
    Leonardo da Vinci

    "A little science estranges men from God, but much science leads them back to Him."
    Louis Pasteur

  10. #35
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    I have read the stickys, they qualify me as a professional when in fact I am far from it, I believe that they should be revised even if it means that it will exclude me from the bladesmiths cafe. Belive me I am extremely upset at some of the stigma against beginners that pervades some of the more experienced bladesmiths here at swordforum, it is both discomforting and unwelcoming. But why do you think some of us "beginners" post here at the professional forum??? We want real answers, if the blind lead the blind they both shall fall into the ditch. I used the search function on SFI 20-30 times seeking answers to my question on the appropriate clay to use during yake-ire. I found nothing. I tried google, ask jeeves, and even meta search engines, I checked out every book pertaining to Japanese style sword making within 20 miles of me and still no answers. This led me to make my first post on sword forum where I was kindly given an answer. Dont assume that because we ask simple qusetions that finding the answer is just as easy.
    There is no knowledge, that is not power.

    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

    The coldest hour is the one just before the dawn.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim frank View Post
    In keeping with the overarching theme of 'warm and friendly', I try to be gentle when pointing out to obvious beginners that there is a huge archive of valuable information here that must be searched before asking questions.

    I'm a semi-pro bladesmith, in that I get paid for some of my work, but I can't make a living from it.

    I hope my attitude is good.

    You are a very good man Jim, you answered my first question here at sword forum, and I felt instantly welcome due to your friendliness. We need more benevolent people like you here.
    There is no knowledge, that is not power.

    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

    The coldest hour is the one just before the dawn.

  12. #37
    It has always seemed to me this forum has functioned rather well in its relaxed state of rule enforcement.

    After all "professional bladesmith" is fairly meaningless when it comes to setting a standard of work.

    The japanese style forum tried to maintain a strict, high end professional membership and rapidly withered. I'd expect the same to occur here if this forum were to be managed in similar fashion.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mvandine View Post
    I<snip>Dont assume that because we ask simple qusetions that finding the answer is just as easy.
    ? If you think this thread was an attack on beginners, I am sorry, but I think you missed the point. this thread was about questions that have been answered enough in many places, but ignored, even when directed at the person in question. I dont mind helping those that try to help themselves, but enough is enough.

    Just my opnion

  14. #39
    It does not take many enthusiastic yet clueless newbies to dilute the level of discussion down to where people with a deeper understanding of the craft will take their problems and solutions elsewhere, assuming the problems won’t get solved and the solutions won’t be understood or appreciated – a quick scan down the post topics can make you think you have an idea of the level of discussion, without even reading a post.

    The thing I don’t get –don’t the clueless newbies realize how embarrassed they will be in a couple years (if they get a clue that is ), looking back on their lazy/silly/dumb (but wonderfully enthusiastic ) posts?

    Or as Robert Burns wrote –
    ...
    O wad some pow’r the giftie gie us
    To see oursels as others see us!
    It wad frae monie a blunder free us


    Now, eat your haggis!
    vikingswordsmith.com

  15. #40
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    Isn’t the”Japanese style sword maker’s café” just for professionals (I know I can’t post there)
    Last post 9 Sep 2007 before that 2006 before that 2005!!!!!!!!! Isn’t a risk that a professionals blade smith café would go the same way???

  16. #41
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    IN all my years of helping with the Q&A thing there is one truth that I have discovered- Not all amateurs are amateurs and not all pros are pros. There are amateurs who think like pros and pros who think like amateurs. I can summon the patience to answer the same question for a 1,001st time for amateur who is asking like a pro (forgive them, for they know not what they do), but I will just find something better to do if faced with a pro thinking like an amateur (walk away, they either know exactly what they are doing or don't care). But of course an amatuer set on thinking like an amateur is just going to be a problem.

    The professional only rule has always been touchy since if you really got draconian about it there would only be 2 or 3 guys wondering what to talk about. And how do you establish that you are a pro? Show your union card (I am out of here)? I have always thought anybody should be allowed to post as long as they ask professional questions, and here is what could keep a mod rather busy. Inappropriate or off topic questions can be moved to the appropriate forum, but it takes a litte more discretion than you may think to determine that.

  17. #42
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    I agree with Kevin in that if the rules were strictly enforced there would be a lack of activity here, on the other hand if it becomes a free-for-all the more advanced smiths will tend to look elsewhere for good technical discussions with their "peers", however one defines the term in this case.

    I think it should be obvious by now that the nature and intent of a question or topic is probably more pertinent than who wrote it.

    Likewise responses to threads started by others, it is easy to move them off topic or distract from the main theme without realizing it (this is one area where I feel I need to pay more attention myself, I have hijacked threads before unintentionally and apologize to anyone whom I have offended in doing so. More and more I find myself starting a reply and then not posting it because it might detract from the original topic, I am learning better discretion but it is probably overdue).

    The most interesting topics to me are ones that generate good discussion rather than just 1 or 2 sentence answers, although the latter is often what I am looking for when I ask a question.
    Justin King

    just killing time until my next bad idea....

  18. #43
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    intentions and sincerity

    are the key ingredients to eliciting a positive reply and good advice .

    you dont need sat nav to locate the BS merchants amongst the well meaning and committed amatuers - outlandish claims and a flakey profile are enough but thankfully these people soon go the way of the dodo.

    Ive found a politely worded PM to the right person helps keep the weeds off the boards , stops me from looking an ass , and more often than not that person will say " feel free to pm me again , anytime"

    oh- and its statements like the one about knowing how to forge a knife without actually ever having forged one thats upset people in the first place ,

    I know how nuclear fission works but I wont be building a bomb anytime soon.

    well worth a Duh ! IMO

    Mick
    " Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."



    Ephesians 6:11

  19. #44
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    outlandish claims and a flakey profile

    Love that quote.

    Interesting thread for different definitions of amatuer and pro.
    Own definition of 'pro' is one makes > 50% of income off the task, whatever that is.
    Don't often post here, definetely consider myself an amatuer DIY type although I forged my first blade in 1955 and even sold some knives in the 70's. Gave away 2 Tons of blacksmith tools back in the 'keenjunk' days.

    Mr. moderator, please leave the pro boards open for those of us who just like to browse, but also let the real pro's occasionally bash the arrogant and the vain untalented who need an ego boost by posting their supposed 'technical expertise'.

    I DIY about everything and browse a number of sites, if anyone wants to see a board where the pros REALLY bash amatuers, go take a look at HVAC-talk.com

  20. #45
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    Hi Art,

    It's always nice to see lurkers speak out. Daryl Meier kind of has that down to a science here. A frequent reader but very sparsely heard voice (always a treat to read).

    There was never an indication that the board would be shut off from public view or response, simply a hope that it would not be another general discussion area. The only negative distraction I have witnessed in here is much what Steve had originally addressed in his lead post and what I was seeing as the general public joining in the pig piles of criticism instead of doing the beer and chips runs.

    This was an subforum that was quite a bit more active (in a good way) a couple of years ago. It may be that it goes in cycles, or folk simply have found more focused venues to work things out.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; as far as I know, this subforum isn't changing it's locks or windows

  21. #46
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    Newbie questions not a pain

    Let me start w/ my qualifications to post on this forum.I am a lifelong worker w/ steel as are all the men in my family for at least 6 generations, (I can prove that). I made my first blade in 1975 and 3 years later apprenticed myself to Rod Chappell, one of the founders of the Knifemaker's Guild in the USA. In 1979 I was accepted as a member of the Knifemakers Guild and went full time as a knifemaker. I'm still a full time knifemaker and have sold thousands of my products to hunters, fishermen,mercs, police, soldiers and have as my 2 top sales, King Faud of Saudi Arabia and Slim Pickens, the character actor, so i've probably sold more product than any of you.
    Having passed all that gas, I think you guys are pretty rough on the newcomers, wanting info. Is there some law that says all the newbies should be forced to wade through endless piles of dreck to get an answer to a simple question? Excuse me boys but none of your names ring any bells for me as stars in the bladesmithing firmament. Most, but not all of us 2nd generation bladesmiths (i'm 65) have always welcomed the newcomers as they might just be tomorrows amazing bladesmith, who will astound the world with what they can create. I guess you feel you have something to protect and don't want to be bothered. I understand the pique at being asked the same question over and over again, but your forum layout is the problem, not the newbies. It's hard to wade thru all the posts to find what you're looking for and we do live in the age of instant gratification. This topic was ended last year so i'm not sure any of you will even see it, but if you do, replies are welcomed. Stew Crawford
    Last edited by Stewart Crawford; 05-20-2009 at 06:22 PM.

  22. #47
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    Hi all
    Is there any way to share work and ideas on the level of several years of bladesmithing experience. It could benefit all of us bladesmiths.
    Boaz

  23. #48
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    I am more than pleased to see many folks that I know from other blade sites and thankfully to them and their direction I am able to be here . I look forward to some reading and interaction within the forum .

    Blessings & Best Regards

    Ret, Sgt. R. Yates

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Yates View Post
    I am more than pleased to see many folks that I know from other blade sites and thankfully to them and their direction I am able to be here . I look forward to some reading and interaction within the forum .

    Blessings & Best Regards

    Ret, Sgt. R. Yates
    Welcome aboard

    There are still fairly active subforums but it has been awhile since this section has seen much activity.

    Cheers

    Hotspur; I would give any question or presentation time to be seen. Some only visit infrequently

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