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Thread: modern wootz and best, antique wootz ever

  1. #51
    Getting back to the subject of this thread, patterns, I think it is safe to say that manipulating the carbide bands in wootz is an order of magnitude more complex than the pattern manipulation involved in pattern welding, not even including the difficulties involved in making the steel in the first place.
    That said, it ‘aint rocket science, and after you forge out fifty or a hundred ingots you do get a feel for what makes the bands move, so I imagine the patterns we see in the old swords are far from accidental - they must have been mighty familiar with the material when those swords were made.
    To see if pattern has more to do with the smith’s intentions than the characteristics of the particular ingot he is working, I decided to see how close I could get to a few of the various patterns on the swords in Figiel’s “On Damascus Steel”, using a single ingot. At least, the experiment might show that widely varied patterns can be coaxed out of a single block of dendritic steel.
    If you have that reference, check out figures 8a, 27a and 28a; though not exact, I think these might be “in the ballpark” in terms of overall appearance. The samples are in the 1x2 – 2x3 inch size range, roughly sword-scale.
    3-2-009s.jpg – Fig. 8a
    5-2-013a.jpg – Fig. 27a
    1-2-14b.jpg – Fig. 28a
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  2. #52
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    Jeff,
    Nice work. It helps that you have large banding in that ingot which allows for a greater visual effect when the bands are disrupted.
    I am interested in a repeat of that large banding from another ingot.

    Ric
    Richard Furrer
    Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin
    http://doorcountyforgeworks.com/

  3. #53
    Jeff,

    That is some very nice, broad banding you have gotten there! Is this the type of pattern that all your ingots produce? If so, what is your cooling rate during solidification? I am currently running on the the theory that the cooling rate is one of the big deciding factors in the final pattern, since it will change the type and orientation of the dendrites that form. My ingots always seem to form a much more fibrous pattern, rather than the laminar or sheet patterns that we see in the highest quality antique blades. I want to be clear here that when I am referring to the "pattern", I am talking about the underlying appearance of the carbide banding rather than the material manipulation patterns. In my opinion, manipulating the banding to get a pattern is not the complicated part, it is getting the desired type of banding in the first place.

  4. #54
    Ric –
    I’ll see what I can do, of the other two ingots I was attacking the past couple weeks one has similar definition and size, the other is somewhat muddy, I might be missing some critical alloy component in that one.

    Peter –

    Is this the type of pattern that all your ingots produce? If so, what is your cooling rate during solidification?


    Since I try not to have too much control of the smelting process, my ingots are variable to a degree; I’d say more than half are more or less like this example. I typically ramp the furnace down over ~1/2 an hour and cool the crucible in the furnace for up to an hour, but when solidification happens and how long it takes I’ve never tried to figure out.

    I want to be clear here that when I am referring to the "pattern", I am talking about the underlying appearance of the carbide banding rather than the material manipulation patterns. In my opinion, manipulating the banding to get a pattern is not the complicated part, it is getting the desired type of banding in the first place.


    The underlying appearance of the banding IS a material manipulation pattern, the ingots all start out as fibrous, dendritic lumps. Here is a photo of the first pattern test on this ingot, just forged out without any attempt to alter the banding…is this what you are referring to as ‘fibrous’ (kind of an extreme example ‘cause it was close to the end of the bar, where the least amount of forging happens as you transition from ingot to barstock - I like that dendritic appearance, kind of 'modernist wootz'')?
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  5. #55
    I am not at my normal computer, so I can't post better pictures of the pattern I am referring to, but here is a link to a reasonable picture that I posted a couple days ago. The blade pictured is a clay-coated and water-quenched tanto that I made up as an experiment, and the carbides in the hardened region were rendered invisible in the etch...they show very well during grinding and polishing, but the ferric chloride wash that I use to bring out the pattern had the opposite effect in this region.

    http://forums.swordforum.com/attachm...5&d=1210101857

    Anyway, you can see the fibrous pattern that I am talking about pretty well in the picture. The carbides, rather than appearing as sheets or ribbons appear as strands. In some blades that I have done ladder patterns and really cut across the grain of the material, the end-grain appears as a lattice of squares or rhombuses similar to your picture above, but much finer and tighter.

    My best guess is that this is a factor of solidification rate, but so far my attempts to slow this rate haven't yielded the pattern I am aiming for. I had one ingot five or six years ago that did what I wanted, but for the life of me I can't figure out what I did differently that time.

  6. #56
    My best guess is that this is a factor of solidification rate, but so far my attempts to slow this rate haven't yielded the pattern I am aiming for.


    Changing solidification rate might allow you to adjust the size of the pattern, by altering the original dendrite spacing, but that is the only effect I think you’d see. Beyond that, you may well find alloy make-up and forging technique are more fertile ground for theorizing about patterns…and a whole lot of ingot forging can’t hurt, either.
    vikingswordsmith.com

  7. #57
    The cooling rate actually has a huge effect, since rate of solidification completely changes the way in which the dendrites form, not just the spacing between them. Rapid solidification yields a fairly uniform distribution of 3-dimensionally random crystals, while in very slow cooling the dendrites tend to align themselves to a much greater degree. In the steel industry an ingot that cools too slowly and alligns too well is said to have "ingotism" and these ingots are extremely difficult to forge without cracking. I think the questions I am trying to answer is whether the best looking of the antique wootz came from ingotism or from a faster cooluing technique...after all, there aren't any good numbers that I have been able to find that detail just how slow is too slow/slow enough.

    As I said in one of my earlier posts, I have gotten the same fibrous pattern in every ingot except one, and that is saying something when I am talking about one out of about 35. Plenty of people have made more than this, but so far nobody I have talked to has been able to look at the fibrous patterns I am getting and say "Yeah, I used to get that and changed X to Y and now I get this." I have varied my mixes, varied my forging techniques, changed heat ranges, etc. and still I am getting the same effect. Doing additional material manipulation adds more interest to the pattern, but the underlying structure remains fibrous.

  8. #58
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    i think just changing x to y maybe too simple to make a swoopy kinda pattern.. .. i'm thinking its a combo of several factors and those pend on the alloy...

    this is just my loose thoughts.. by no means written on stone...

    it maybe pattern depends on

    1) structure initially solidified.... coarse to fine dendrites pending on cooling time and alloy

    2) roast/anneal/stress relief ...... an additional heat treatment to help the forge-ability of the ingot... and moving around of some elements

    3) forge cycles and reduction... .. how big are your cycles and how many.... and how much forging was done..

    4) how its heat treated... .. effects how it etchs

    5) etching... if you don't use the right acid for the right wootz.... you will see very little of the watering.... some etches work in different ways..


    the most dendritic ingots i forged... one had no anneal and a arc welded casing ... second was pressed out with a short roast..
    - first one had almost the exact pattern the top of the ingot had...

    so honestly... i get one sorta swoopy pattern every 3rd ingot..... .. the other two are kinda half way... or dendritic..


    i have some plans to try and get to the bottom of this... it would be nice to generate some data ..... even use some stats to try and pin down some effect ... which is obviously hard to observe..

    do you hand hammer out your wootz...? from ingot all the way down to blade?

    Greg

  9. #59
    Rapid solidification yields a fairly uniform distribution of 3-dimensionally random crystals, while in very slow cooling the dendrites tend to align themselves to a much greater degree.


    Well, sort of – but unless you are quenching your steel while liquid it will have grains of oriented dendrites of one size or another, you’d have to be pretty quick to randomize single crystals.

    I am talking about one out of about 35. Plenty of people have made more than this


    Really? I’d guesstimate less than five living humans have cooked up AND forged out large numbers of ingots, got to be less than ten total, worldwide – am I missing a big segment of the wootz population somewhere?

    I think really big dendrite arrays don’t like to give up their dendritic look, they can be tenacious, and I suspect fibrosity or non-fibrosity is an independent concern.

    Greg, you seem to have nailed the variables, I agree it is a complex equation!

    Here’s small, medium and large networks in the ingot… which one looks familiar to you?
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  10. #60
    Thanks for those pictures of different ingots. I am attaching a picture of an ingot that is pretty typical in appearance for me. The zones of alligned dendrites are fairly small, like your "small" dendrite photo, but the spaces between the lines of the lattice seem to be larger. This picture is of a 4lb ingot, to give you an idea of scale.

    On the subject of forging and heat cycles, here is what I am doing. After cooling the ingot to solid in the furnace (propane), I remove the crucible from the furnace and let it cool the rest of the way overnight. I have taken Greg's suggestion and have been roasting my ingots at a bright red heat in the forge (propane) for a few hours while doing other forging work. This has definitely made the subsequent forging much easier (Thank you Greg), but has not had any visible effect on the pattern I eventually achieve. Following the roast, I TIG weld a handle on and begin forging under our 110lb Saymak air hammer...always makes me wish for a Chambersburg utility hammer!..going from bright orange to dull red in each heat. I continue this until I have forged out a bar of usable size, which typically takes about 2hrs. Forging beyond this point is done by hand hammer, with temperature range slowly dropping as I get closer to final shape. I finish off with a series of 3-4 thermal cycles above and below critical.

    I do my HT in a high-temp salt pot followed by an oil quench, and have been tempering in the 375F range for knives and 450-550F for swords, depending on design. After polishing I have been doing a wash etch with ferric chloride, which has been doing a pretty good job for me bringing out the pattern.

    I have forged out my ingots in every possible direction, and the underlying pattern of either bands or strands seems to be unrelated to this variable. The one time that I got a very "bandy" pattern, I forged the ingot out in the traditional fashion, ie top of ingot becomes back of blade. Not long after I started forging the ingots so the top became one end of the resulting bar. which made it very easy to cut off any cracked sections. I have since switched back to using either the traditional method, although the last ingot got forged out with the top of the ingot becoming one flat of the bar...this required grinding out some cracks along the way, but otherwise didn't seem to change the pattern.

    Any thoughts?

    The second picture is of the only blade I have forged out that had a banded rather than stranded pattern. This was about five years and 20 ingots ago, so it has been a very long wait for another.
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  11. #61
    sorry double post
    Last edited by Peter T. Swarz-Burt; 05-14-2008 at 08:03 AM. Reason: double post

  12. #62
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    Hi
    hmmm... saymak... wish i had one...

    i guess everybody has their ways... i'm not seeing a big difference in the way we do it..

    typically.... i do a run with 3 melts in a day... in series... ... i wait until the temp dies down abit and pull out the crucible and put it in a kaowool box.. .. ..so it maybe a little liquidy...... the last crucible of the day stays in the bore till cool... ..so i guess some cool much quicker than others..
    - then i stickem lastweeks ingots in an iron box... and put it in with the crucible to cool over night.... basically scavenging the heat from the days melt to roast/anneal..... so the few times i checked... it kept the ingots at a orangish red for 4 to 6 hours.. ( keep in mind my old furnace was 500+ lbs )

    then forged out using coal... and an narrow faced 8lb hammer... took 2 whole days to get a 4lbs ingot to barstock size..

    so there is a slow cool down to room temp inbetween days..

    oh.. and i don't reduce heat that much in the forge cycles towards the end... as i find there is enough lower cycles happening when you get close to finish forging a knife... then the normalize cycles..

    I agree with you about the ingot direction... i've also forged the top as the side of the knife and found no difference... the sheets seem to align to which ever crazy way you forge..

    so far... Jeff and Dmitry are the only smiths i've seen that have forged a big swirly pattern... .. jeez... we gotta keep and eye on those two..

    Greg

    by the way... some blade will look very dendritic with one etch and if you change acids... can add a little bit of swirls....
    - so you may have more there than you think

  13. #63
    What acid are you using? I feel as though you mentioned something about nitric in a different thread...or maybe way back in this one. If so, where is the best place to get and in what concentration? I have been using ferric chloride for all of my etching for about ten years now, so I haven't had much practice tracking down the other etchants.

    I think that we do have one good piece of information gleaned from the comparison of our two methods: power forging versus hand forging does not seem to be a major factor. I guess this should have been obvious from the fact that Pendray was doing his forging under a very large air hammer (500 pounder I think), but it is always good to have more evidence. I had been wondering whether the forging method was a major factor, since the ancient smiths would have been working mostly by sledge, especially in the early years of wootz manufacture, and if the accounts are correct they also tended to work at relatively low temperatures.

    From your checklist, this leaves type of etch, rate of cooling, mix of ingredients, and the temperature and length of the "roast". I will be trying out the different etch once I get my hands on some nitric acid, so perhaps that will be eliminated soon...at least for the "fibrous" issue that I am currently facing. I also have an ingot that I cut in half, so perhaps I will try a longer and hotter roast on it to see if that has an effect. This would leave mix of ingredients and solidification rate as our final variables, and I think they are the most likely to be fruitful areas of experimentation. My bet is on rate of solidification, since I think this is the most likely to affect the structure the dendrites take and therefore the underlying nature of the wootz pattern. I will be curious to see.

  14. #64
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    its a puzzle... isn't it. i'm sure we'll be scratching our heads for years on it...

    bout the acids.. .. i wanted to write a big article on it... there is just so much to tell.....

    there is an old article i wrote on the net using a dilute nitric... i find the steel preparation is important to get a nice etch with this.. and it can really show some nice detail......

    - but remember.. this all pends on the kind of wootz that you have... ... .. you can't turn a go-kart into a Cadillac ... by this i mean... a better etch only reveals what is really there.... ( often i wish it weren't true

    so just a short list...
    - iron sulphate
    -copper sulphate
    -sulphuric acid ( dilute )
    -acetic acid
    -phosphoric acid
    -citric acid but as an addition
    -tannic acid
    and for the last year and a half... i've be experimenting with sulphides.. with some very good success

    - to make it more complicated... these all pend on the type of heat treat and alloy..
    - sometimes you just have to putt around till you find the right one or combination of acids.... .. some work well at the Right dilution.... as it seems each wootz likes to etch at a different rate....
    - to some degree, you can control the back ground colors..

    -however... I strongly recommend a dilute nitric as a starting acid.. ( even though its very dangerous in reagent grade ) -- it is very dilute when used for etching..
    - often it is used before using other acids to outline the pattern..
    ( seems like some of the other acids have a hard time to get rolling )

    it is hard to get ahold of nitric.... sometimes you can get it at industrial cleaning supply stores... but on the whole, they seem to restrict it..

    i know this sounds complex... and it is... just like every aspect of this steel... .. i'm going to write an basic article on it ...hopefully soon as i am moving back to the north on the 17th...

    -- oh.. just a safety note... make sure you read up on the acid safety before mixing up... some acids have funny characteristics... like gas coming off sulphides...


    Greg

    ps this is just quickly off the top of my head (may have forgot stuff )... as i'm in a super rush..

  15. #65
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    "It helps that you have large banding in that ingot which allows for a greater visual effect when the bands are disrupted.
    I am interested in a repeat of that large banding from another ingot."
    Ric

    Ric,
    I think I know what you mean by large banding but I am not sure. Just started examining old cakes and older failed cakes for contrast. If I have such material around I want to make sure I recognize it.
    Thanks
    Jan

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Ysselstein View Post
    "It helps that you have large banding in that ingot which allows for a greater visual effect when the bands are disrupted.
    I am interested in a repeat of that large banding from another ingot."
    Ric

    Ric,
    I think I know what you mean by large banding but I am not sure. Just started examining old cakes and older failed cakes for contrast. If I have such material around I want to make sure I recognize it.
    Thanks
    Jan
    Hi Jan,
    The final look depends upon the spacing of the cementite, their size and then how you manipulate those bands (ladder, drill bit holes..even peening with the hammer etc). I have had single dendrites be 2" long in larger ingots and remain more or less unchanged, but stretched, in the final blade. The blade that Jeff forged had a very nice banding...good space between and good contrast from matrix to carbide...this is not the norm in modern wootz. Jeff did something different.....its up to him to backtrack and reproduce the effect.

    Ric
    Richard Furrer
    Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin
    http://doorcountyforgeworks.com/

  17. #67
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    Hi Jan,
    The final look depends upon the spacing of the cementite, their size and then how you manipulate those bands (ladder, drill bit holes..even peening with the hammer etc). I have had single dendrites be 2" long in larger ingots and remain more or less unchanged, but stretched, in the final blade. The blade that Jeff forged had a very nice banding...good space between and good contrast from matrix to carbide...this is not the norm in modern wootz. Jeff did something different.....its up to him to backtrack and reproduce the effect.

    Ric

    Thank you. If we look at a "wootz cake" and see a clearly defined dedritic structure, are the visible cementite areas at the location of the "carbide formers" ? Assuming they are not, does that mean we can not know if the banding is tight or large until we forge the cake?

    By the way I think Jeff has posted all the details of his experiment and I kind of enjoy the challenge this is presenting to us, so I think it is now up to all of us to reproduce the effect. We are all very, very close ,I am sure.
    His experiment has suggested several variations for me to try soon, the trouble is, they are so darn expensive to do.
    How boring it will be to log on to one of these sites and have everyone post a perfect "wootz" pattern.
    Jan

  18. #68
    Jan,

    My own experience is that the initial dendritic structure, while certainly a predictor of the final pattern, is definitely not the whole story. After all, if you look at the picture of one of my typical ingots versus those of Jeff's typical ingots, there isn't much difference to see. Yet Jeff seems to be pulling off a nice laminar pattern (wish I knew how), while my own ingots always forge down with a very fibrous pattern (wish I knew why). When compared to the very "broad" and "open" patterns seen in the Persian blades, neither mine nor Jeff's matches the look. Mine is very different because the underlying structure of the pattern is different, while Jeff's is different not in structure, but in degree.

    To go with a "wood grain" comparison here, the Persian blades show a very open and well defined grain, Jeff's show a tighter but still well-defined grain (smaller "growth rings"), while mine comes from an entirely different kind of tree, perhaps a black Palm. One is not necessarliy superior to the others, but I think we can all agree that the spectacular patterns (like the one I posted early in the thread) are the goal of all our strivings. Maybe I am mistaken in this, but I know it is what I am aiming for.

    On your original question, I do think that the dendritic pattern in the ingot is a predictor of the eventual "broadness" of the pattern, since the carbide bands are definitely forming along the initial dendrite lines. This is especailly easy to see at the ends of a wootz bar, where the material has been forged the least. In these areas, the original dendrite matrix is still quite visible, and it can be seen to blend into the pattern of the remainder of the bar. In many cases, material removal patterns such as ladder and pool and eye will also reveal areas of this dendritic pattern elsewhere in the blade, indicating that this dendritic pattern may be hidden, yet present, throughout.

  19. #69
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    Peter,

    Thanks for the reply. Jeff's patterns have looked "unique" for a long time, but he has just hit on something quite different (possibly to his surprise).
    The latest pattern is a look I would like be able to create. So all I can do for the time being is, hypothesize what he did and what may have created the change (Jeff has shared his details with all of us). I kind of enjoy experimenting at very high temperatures,so not knowing is not driving me crazy. Meanwhile I just keep reading to learn to explain what it is I am looking at though the magnifying glass.

    Jan

  20. #70
    Hi Jan! Nice to ‘see’ you over here, maybe we should wootz-brainstorm in your mountain retreat, there are so many variables to eliminate it would help to have an idyllic setting to keep focused…FYI I’m going to cook up some ore this evening over at Jim’s.

    To get the real wootz patterns, first thing you got to do is take that western music off the stereo and put something more Persian on while you forge. Homayoun Shajarian, Anis Moin, Mahasti or Shakila should get your dendrites to relax, and the rest is all in your hammering.


    I too think the scale of the pattern is set by the size of the dendrites, visible on the ingot surface. Unfortunately I have not taken a lot of ingot photos, so it’s hard for me to come up with a matched set of several photos of both the ingot and a blade forged from it – that could be the proof right there, so I’ll start taking photos of ingots if you guys will – make sure there’s a ruler or scale reference in the shot.
    And speaking of scale, I like the ‘wood grain’ analogy, but I think we all know who has the superior wootz around here – Greg is the only one hand hammering every ingot all the way, that’s a whole lotta care and attention and I think he gets the nod for superior dedication to doin’ it old school. My ingots only get that much love on special occasions. Unless, Greg, it is just because you don’t have an air hammer?
    Regarding the size of the tree rings, my ingots usually yield blades with patterns of about the same scale as the old Indian & Persian blades, for instance this blade I’m trying to finish up this week (different ingot from the one used for the pattern tests, but they were Persian-size too) matches up well with an antique jambiya made from large-scale Persian wootz that I keep around for reference, and has a bigger pattern than a Persian wootz kard and Indian wootz tulwar that are my ‘medium’ and ‘small’ references. As soon as I get a little more Persian style in my swirls I’ll take some side-by-side photos.
    Did you send any metal to the lab yet, Peter? Is your process uniform enough for you to say a test on one ingot will tell you something about untested ingots? I have a hunch that banding quality (clarity, contrast, maybe more) is heavily influenced by minor changes in chemistry.
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  21. #71
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    Jeff, you're doing some great work there
    "If metal can be polished to a mirror-like finish,
    What polishing might the Mirror of the Heart require"

    Rumi

  22. #72
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    "I too think the scale of the pattern is set by the size of the dendrites, visible on the ingot surface"
    Jeff

    Jeff,
    Verhoeven states dendrite spacing in cast steel may as great as 1mm. My cakes are only at about half that distance at best (however I have a textbook photo of a single crystal of steel (iron) which seems to be an exception to that rule). I have a sample of iron (part of a higher carbon smelt) which has a structure I would love to see in a crucible melt (very crisp areas of cementite contrasted with what I believe is pearlite).
    Yes, Geg is "de Man" when it comes to forging the unforgable (please don't tell him I have just cut 4 lbs off of a 10 lb. sledge), he has made a significant contribution to our collective understanding of this material.
    Today I will be attempting to forge some scraps of wootz in order to learn what I can before remelting.
    Jan

  23. #73
    Forging scraps is good, you can learn a lot from a limited amount of material, especially if you have scraps from a few ingots lying around. Most of my fragments are no longer tied to a specific smelt in my brain, though, so some potential knowledge can be lost unless you have a filing system for your spare ingot parts.
    Here is today’s scrap experiment, next to an antique Persian kard, and one from last week that presumably came from a faster-cooled ingot, it’s got a finer structure but looks like it will make a sweet knife anyway, once the carving is done.

    p.s. Thanks, Mumtaz!
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  24. #74
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    Jeff,

    Both of those pieces look really good, the one with the carving looks like you have just left the dendritic look....I think you've got it. That was a good way to spend a day.....I spent it fumbling a cake of wootz with tongs in a charcoal fire (and often on the floor) , hitting it with a 12 lb. sledge (cut handle) and virtually having no impact on its' shape at all.
    I am very nervous about proceeding too fast with the brittle chunk.....sooooo much time and money has been invested, I will just plug along until the steel tells me it is ok to speed things up.

    It is becoming clear to me why so few people continue to attempt wootz...you would have to be crazy.

    Jan

  25. #75
    So far I have not had any chunks sent out to the lab for testing for reasons that can best be summed up as "laziness". This is the result of having too many other, more important (ie money making), things to do, thus procrastination sets in. Melting ingots and forging them into blades is fun and exciting, calling around to find a good lab that can run the tests on the cheap is not fun. However, my formula is pretty simple and I have stuck pretty close to it for several years now.

    Basically it can be boiled down into gray cast iron (haven't been able to find a local source for high purity pig iron), mild steel, and a small chunk of vandium-bearing tool steel...generally W-2. I calculate all my ingredients with a carbon percentage of around 1.5% in mind, although this varies somewhat, generally to the high side. I use fireclay crucibles to avoid picking up carbon or silicon, and run a simple slag of mixed green and clear glass over the top. I don't cover my crucibles, since I like to be able to poke a mild steel probe into the mix to check for full-melt...my furnace achieves high enough temps after about 1-1/2 hours, but I always like to be absolutely certain.

    When I first started out I was shutting down the furnace and closing up all ports to achieve a slow solidification, but more recently I have taken Greg's suggestion and run multiple crucibles in a single day, one after the other. This means that I am shutting down and waiting about 10 mins for full-solid, then popping one crucible out and dropping the next one in. I think the next time I do a run I will try to drop the furnace temp to around 2200F and hold there for 10 mins, then turn off and cool a bit further to be sure...I have accidentally moved partially liquid ingots in the past and it makes for some very strange shapes.

    After the ingot is completely cool, generally the next day, I pop it into the propane forge and let it "roast" for at least an hour. This was another suggestion from Greg, and it definitely imrpoves the forgeability of the ingot. My guess is that the re-crystalization helps "blur" some of the potential fracture planes created by the slow solidification. To help in this I often heat cycle my ingots a number of times during this process. Most of my forging is carried out in the orange to bright orange range, and as I mentioned before this is all under an air hammer. I typically get some minor cracking in the portion corresponding to the top-center of the ingot, but I have assumed this was the result of impurities (sulfur and phosphorous, mainly) from the cast iron concentrating in this area.

    Does anyone spot something in here that says "Aha! this is why the pattern is so fibrous rather than laminar."

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