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Thread: Sword Bayonet Discussion & Photos

  1. #26
    Dennis,
    Thanks for the lead! I will contact CW Preservations per Andre's recommendation. I think it would be hard to say whether the Union or Confederacy would have used the bayonet, but it seems possible that the bayonet saw service during the ACW.

    Thanks again!

    Jonathan

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Ducote View Post
    ...The bayonet on that site has a serial number stamped on it as well as a series of dots....

    I'm not sure what makes the bayonet on the website Confederate, but it may have something do to with the serial number or the dots. Some arms have been traced to the Confederacy by serial number. I don't know if that tracing works with enfields. Others bear simplistic markings such as Roman numberals or a pattern of dots...

    Andre
    Interesting points, Andre. I'll wait until you start that thread on Confederate edged weapons before posting pics germane to the dot markings (as the illustrative edged weapon is not a bayonet).
    mark@swordforum.com

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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark McMorrow View Post
    Interesting points, Andre. I'll wait until you start that thread on Confederate edged weapons before posting pics germane to the dot markings (as the illustrative edged weapon is not a bayonet).
    That sounds like a strong hint. Ok . . .

    Andre
    Andre F. Ducote
    Mississippi

  4. #29
    Does anyone own any "dress bayonets" for parade purposes? The ones I have seen for sale have been German and have portepees. Were these issued at the time of a parade or did soldiers maintain both a service bayonet and a parade bayonet? George Wheeler?

    Jonathan

  5. #30
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    Ask and ye shall recieve-

    Here's my happy little dress bayonet. It's German and of several different types, is the plainest. No fancy fullers, stag grips here. Researching mine it seems they were private purchase. I have no knot for it, but there is a felt insert in the lug slot, it's green. Other than mine I have only seen red inserts so I am unsure if the felt is original.

    For comparison, next to one of my 84/98s
    Attached Images Attached Images     

  6. #31
    Thanks, Nick! The dress bayonet really contrasts with the other service bayonet. Would this one originally have had a knot?

    Jonathan

  7. #32
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    Whether mine specifically did, I don't know, but my best reference book has pictures of several of the type with a knot, and the proper way to wear it thus.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.G. Hopkins View Post
    Does anyone own any "dress bayonets" for parade purposes? The ones I have seen for sale have been German and have portepees. Were these issued at the time of a parade or did soldiers maintain both a service bayonet and a parade bayonet? George Wheeler?

    Jonathan
    You guys have opened a can of worms!

    First, you open the huge subject of saber bayonets and now service and parade bayonets. Yes, Jonathan I own a few bayonets.

    The Germans did have service bayonets that were items of issue. Most were worn with bayonet knots. Officers wore a Portepee style of knot while NCOs and enlisted men wore a Troddel or a Faustriemen. "Dress bayonets" were usually privately purchased by the soldier and could be worn off duty with "walking out dress" or on duty if the bayonet outwardly matched what was issued. That is to say, if a NCO was issued a KS98 and wanted something better than issue quality he could buy one with a "Rememberance of my time in Service" etched blade and wear it on or off duty. Officers could also wear bayonets and every once in a while you will even see a General Officer wearing one in lieu of a sword or dagger.

    The Kurtzes Seitengewehr (KS98) by Pack that N. White shows is the long model with a 25cm blade that was worn by enlisted men. NCOs wore the short model KS98 with a 20cm blade. Probably 90% of these KS98 that are encountered were private purchase bayonets. KS98 that can be shown to be items of issue will have property markings on them. The correct knot for this long KS98 is an enlisted Army Troddel or an Air force Faustiemen. The green insert in the lug slot is proper and would indicate the bayonet belonged to an enlisted man in either an Army Jäger-Formation or an Air Force Flieger-Aufsichtstruppen unit. I just posted a chart of various knots on another thread and here it is again.
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    Last edited by George Wheeler; 03-28-2008 at 04:15 PM.
    "You can't please everyone, so you have to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

  9. #34
    George,
    Thanks for the information on knots used for German dress bayonets. When did Germany make the switch from sword bayonets to shorter more dagger-like bayonets? Around the turn of the century (like other European nations)?

    Thanks,
    Jonathan

  10. #35
    Robert (Wilkinson-Latham),
    You know a thing or two about British bayonets. To what extent was Wilkinsons (or Mole) involved in the design of hilted bayonets? Were these strictly government designs?

    Thank you,
    Jonathan

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.G. Hopkins View Post
    George,
    Thanks for the information on knots used for German dress bayonets. When did Germany make the switch from sword bayonets to shorter more dagger-like bayonets? Around the turn of the century (like other European nations)?

    Thanks,
    Jonathan
    The Germans started moving from sword bayonets to shorter, and thinner, blades with the S98 in 1898. These bayonets fit the new Mauser system rifles and carbines as did almost all those models that followed. The Seitengewehr 98 still had a long blade of around 520mm (20 1/2") but was a narrow quillback form. These did not last much into WWI as they were ungainly and the long leather scabbards tended to break in the trenches. The KS98 was adopted in 1901 and it was a true knife bayonet with around a 253mm (10") blade. This is the model that was shown above and continued in use until the end of WWII. Two very similar bayonets were adopted in 1902 (S98/02) and 1905 (S98/05) and these were the so-called butcher blade bayonets with flat blades of around 427mm (16 3/4") with swelled tips. The S84/98 bayonet (often incorrectly called the K98) was adopted around 1905. This bayonet was first made from reworking old S71/84 bayonets and then entirely new ones were constructed during WWI from about 1915 onward. These continued in production through 1945 and had blades of around 370mm (15") and were also a true knife bayonet.

    The S98 on the left has an Imperial NCO Troddel. The Imperial/Weimar period KS98 next to it has a sawback and a NS Zeit enlisted Troddel. The S98/05 is one that was siezed by the Poles and used by them interwar and then recaptured by the Germans who left the Polish pommel designation and smooth Polish replacement grips intact but blued it and put it back into German service during WWII. The S84/98 on the right is an unmarked commercial version without military proofs made during WWII.
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    Last edited by George Wheeler; 03-29-2008 at 07:33 AM. Reason: Typographical date error - typing late at night
    "You can't please everyone, so you have to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

  12. #37
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    George, thank you for the additional info on my bayonet, as well as reassuring me the green felt is correct.

    As for british bayonets, I'd love to hear about whatever guy came up with the mark I number 7- I love it but its such an oddball. Mine has a circled P next to its year of make- I read somewhere this is the mark for "Poole"?
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    Last edited by N White; 03-28-2008 at 07:45 PM.

  13. #38
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    Interesting saw back, George.

    Here's one of mine. This one is made by A. Wingen Jr., Solingen. The checkered horn grip has an Imperial cypher affixed.

    mark@swordforum.com

    ~ Hostem Hastarum Cuspidibus Salutemus ~

    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who don't."
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  14. #39
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    Chassepots, with a difference...

    All are Colonial/Naval issues, with anchor stamps on the guard.





    mark@swordforum.com

    ~ Hostem Hastarum Cuspidibus Salutemus ~

    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who don't."
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  15. #40
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    Mark,

    Four very nice French Chassepot saber bayonets with Yatagan blades! It is all in the markings and your anchor marked ones are super.

    I also like your Imperial KS98 sawback very much. I can't quite make out the cypher. Is it Frederick Wilhelm? Unfortunately some dilbert sharpened my nickeled KS98 sawback before I got it. It does not look quite as bad in person as it does in the photograph. It is unmarked but it is a large size private purchase with grip screwbolts instead of rivets.

    Here is a later sawback by Anton Wingen. This one not only is a short Officer/NCO sawback but has very nice stag grips. This KS98 is from the late Weimar Republic or early NS Zeit. The Troddel is for a NCO and oddly enough has a modified crown with aluminum cordng instead of the normally seen green & aluminum wire cording. I presume this must have been modified by some senior Sergeant who wished to identify his position.
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    "You can't please everyone, so you have to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

  16. #41
    Mark,
    Great selection of Chassepot bayonets! What a great niche of collecting within the wide world of Chassepot bayos.

    George,
    Thank you for sharing more of your fantastic collection. You should write a book or something.

    Here is the last of my sword bayonets, a humble French M1874 epee bayonet for the Gras rifle. The serial numbers on the guard and scabbard match, and the spine bears the date 1877.












  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Wheeler View Post
    Four very nice French Chassepot saber bayonets with Yatagan blades!...
    Thanks. They are pretty interesting. One has the scarce 'Balloon' marking on the ricasso.

    Quote Originally Posted by George Wheeler View Post
    I also like your Imperial KS98 sawback very much. I can't quite make out the cypher. Is it Frederick Wilhelm?
    Yes. This one looks like its seen some service, but it has a lot of character.
    mark@swordforum.com

    ~ Hostem Hastarum Cuspidibus Salutemus ~

    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who don't."
    Benjamin Franklin

  18. #43
    I think that the second bayonet might well be intended for a Liege-produced rifle. The main giveaway is the screw holding the spring rather than a rivet and the disc-shaped quillon end. Squared fuller ends are said to be typical of early production French 1842's.

    At least one infantry unit (from Pennsylvania or Massachusetts, I think) carried these large calibre "Vincennes" rifles with sabre bayonets.

  19. #44
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    Well, Tuesday night is auction night around here, and tonight was a good one. First up was a british 1907, one originally made without the quillion, (Sept 1918) in better condition than my 1st one.

    The second one is pictured below. It's a Japanese training bayonet. It is DULL (as in rounded edge), crude, and has no arsenal marks. The press catch is particuarly nasty, which is apparently a hallmark of this type. A nice, and uncommon addition.

    The last pic is my finger next to the "sharp" edge for perspective, to emphasize how blunt it is.
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  20. #45
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    Jonathan
    Wilkinsons did get involved early on having input into the Elcho but later bayonets not really. They were instrumental in getting two brass 'bolts' for the 1888 instead of the 2 small I large of the design. Other than that there was little involvement until WW2 when they perfected the design for the No 5 bayonet (Jungle Carbine) and had considerable input into the design and function of the No 7.
    origially the designs from Cheshunt were A and B. A had a fixed grip with the barrel going inside the grip *Similar to the SA80 today) while the Pattern B had a raised pommel which was very similar to the 'Spike' bayonet pommel. Wilkinson's engineers, especially Charlie Rose, designed it so that the pommel swivelled and locked in the 'up' position to fit the barrel of the No 4 Rifle and the 'down' position where it could be used as a fighting knife.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.G. Hopkins View Post
    Robert (Wilkinson-Latham),
    You know a thing or two about British bayonets. To what extent was Wilkinsons (or Mole) involved in the design of hilted bayonets? Were these strictly government designs?

    Thank you,
    Jonathan

  21. #46
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    In WW2 Wilkinsons had considerable input into the design and function of the No 7 bayonet.
    Originally the designs from Cheshunt were A and B.
    A had a fixed grip with the barrel going inside the grip (Similar to the SA80 today) while the Pattern B had a raised pommel which was very similar to the 'Spike' bayonet pommel.
    Wilkinson's engineers, especially Charlie Rose, designed it so that the pommel swivelled and locked in the 'up' position to fit the barrel of the No 4 Rifle and the 'down' position where it could be used as a fighting knife.
    You are correct circle and P is RSAF Poole
    Robert
    Quote Originally Posted by N White View Post
    George, thank you for the additional info on my bayonet, as well as reassuring me the green felt is correct.

    As for british bayonets, I'd love to hear about whatever guy came up with the mark I number 7- I love it but its such an oddball. Mine has a circled P next to its year of make- I read somewhere this is the mark for "Poole"?

  22. #47
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    This past week I went to the Brimfield antiques show in Brimfield mass to hunt for bayonets. Early in the day I picked up a French Lebel, but little else struck my fancy. Finally, on the way out back toward the car I spied this- a 1869 dated Chassepot with a German frogstud. I was able to bargain the guy down to half what he wanted.

    From what I have read, this bayonet was probably captured during the Franco-Prussian war and reissued as a sidearm for a German official. It's also the earliest date Chassepot I have acquired so far, so I'm doubly lucky it seems- although the condition isnt perfect, and the tip was bent at some point, I'm very happy.
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  23. #48

    Baker sword bayo

    Can anyone shed light on inscription ? Wm cuthbertson GSS thanks .
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  24. #49
    A fellow forumite was asking me about this pattern bayonet:



    It looks like a crude baker bayonet, but the description states that it is a P1837 sword bayonet for the Brunswick Rifle. I had a look through my meager bayonet resources and did not find any information. Can anyone offer any information on this pattern?

    Thank you,
    Jonathan

  25. #50
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    I'm with you, Jonathan. Looks like an ugly baker to me. Maddox's 'Collecting Bayonets' has 2 pictures of Brunswick and they look more like brass hilted gladiuses- slightly wasp wasted with no D guard. The section on Bakers says Nepal made ones sometimes look "nasty", and the author says he has seen 5 brass variants.

    My .02,

    waiting for the experts, happy to be proven wrong.

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