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Thread: Sword Bayonet Discussion & Photos

  1. #76
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    Thumbs up

    Does anyone know how rare the Japanese issue chesspots are? Have one that has been chromed, along with the scabbard. The only place that isn't chromed is the japanese flower marking. Also have noticed that some scabbards have the bar hanger, while some have the studs. What is the difference? A very interesting thread. Aloha

  2. #77
    Dennis,
    I have only ever dabbled in bayonets, so please take my input with a grain of salt...

    I have not personally seen any Japanese Chassepot bayonets offered for sale, but I have not really been actively looking at Chassepots for more than a few days. Still, I would guess that in the world of M1866 bayonets, they are probably one of the more rare varieties. The example pictured the Old Smithy site has kanji writing on the blade. Do you have a photo of yours?

    In my recent reading (at old-smithy.info, maybe) I learned that the stud on the scabbard is a German conversion. Apparently the Prussians took a large number of these as part of war reparations from the Franco-Prussian War.

    Jonathan

  3. #78
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    These are the only photos I have of it right now, don't have a camera right now, but am trying to get one. Picked it up in a pawn shop in Fort Lauderdale about 6 years ago. Thank you for the stud information Jonathan, Have een wondering about that for years
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    Last edited by Dennis East; 08-19-2009 at 06:39 PM.

  4. #79
    Here are a few quick pics of my humble new French M1866 Chassepot bayonet made at St. Etienne in 1873:










  5. #80

    Chassepot bayonets

    I'm new to this technology so hope it works.Here is a collection of Chassepot bayonets in cronological order flanked by a M1874 Gras bayonet,dated 1877,on the left and a M1842/59 bayonet,dated 1865 to the right.The gaps in the first photo are for those needed to complete the sequence,'69 and '66.Still looking!! Why dates? The field is so large you need some ground rules and limits.
    All have matching numbers and are from various armories.They all have a story to tell.
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    Niall Dignan

  6. #81
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    Impressive! What is the latest date you have, 75?

    Incidentally, I have a 69, German captured and scabbard reworked. While I look for Gras primarily, I have seen a couple 69 Chassepot within the past year or so, but all were German captures like mine. Do look for just straight issued examples?

    Good luck on finding your missing pieces!

  7. #82
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    Chassepot Bayonet dates

    I have found many Chassepot bayonets with 1870's dates, and have only one with 1869. Were there few made before the Franco-Prussian war or have collectors snapped the early ones up? Some marks on the scabbard look to be German and are opposite side of the French numbers. The 1869 is in surprisingly good condition. The 1842 at the beginning of this post is similar to one of mine that has a rabbit head mark of Fredrick Plucker, I have seen several different spellings for the name. I believe it was a German import for the American Civil War.

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by N White View Post
    Impressive! What is the latest date you have, 75?

    Incidentally, I have a 69, German captured and scabbard reworked. While I look for Gras primarily, I have seen a couple 69 Chassepot within the past year or so, but all were German captures like mine. Do look for just straight issued examples?

    Good luck on finding your missing pieces!
    The latest is dated St.Etienne Mars 1875 and the earliest Chat. Juillet 1867.
    I'm not too fussy whether they're German capture or not so long as the bayonet and scabbard are in good condition and have clear stamps and inscription.
    My collecting is usually a coinsidence of opportunity and resources,they don't always come together.I came across one dated 1866 recently but the bucket was already on it's way up out of the well at the time.You always expect another to come along at some stage.It's the frission of the game.



    If I may be permitted to continue the timeline the P1853 in the photo has a '66' stamped on the guard(date????) and the composite bayonet retaining device above that is stamped Enfield 1864.
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    Niall Dignan

  9. #84
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    Japanese chassepot

    Dennis,

    I have seen this photo floating around for awhile. Basically, I really don't believe it is Japanese. It is possible, but I'd have to see the marking photographed closely. If it is all plated, but the mum.... This sounds like someone adding the marking to increase the value. All the Japanese Chassepots I have seen or owned have had more markings than just the mum.

    Is there a maker and date on the back of the blade?

    Shawn

  10. #85
    I didn't have the time to read the entire thread thus far but I wanted to quickly add to it. I just (today) discovered (thanks to this forum) that what I believed to be a sword was actually a French M1842 Sword Bayonet from 1854!

    Unfortunately I also don't have a scabbard as I got it at a local auction. I didn't even know what it was or that is was a part of the lot I was bidding on. Talk about coincidence eh?

    I haven't fully worked out attaching thumbnails yet (and my pictures are huuuge) so here's some photobucket links.

    Now I've got another interest in sword bayonets.

    Of the engraving:
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00434.jpg
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00435.jpg
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00433.jpg
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00432.jpg
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00431.jpg

    Of the hilt:
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00420.jpg
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00410.jpg
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00396.jpg
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00395.jpg
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00394.jpg


    Of the blade:
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00407.jpg
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00398.jpg
    http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o...d/DSC00397.jpg

    EDIT:
    Forgot to add that I'll read the entire thread some other time, I have to run right now!
    Last edited by P. Marin Cummins; 05-28-2010 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Forgot something

  11. #86

    Model 1842 sabre Bayonet

    Quote Originally Posted by J.G. Hopkins View Post
    This thread is dedicated to discussing and sharing photos of sword bayonets. The bayonets can be from your collection or just a bayonet in which or have an interest or a question.

    To start, below are two mid 19th century sword bayonets from my collection. I have had trouble pinning each of them down exactly, so I will do my best to provide accurate information. I am very open to corrections!

    First is what I have seen called an "1855 Mississippi" sword bayonet. It is marked S&K, for Schnitzler & Kirschbaum, on one side of the forte, while the other side is struck with an anchor. I do not have a scabbard for this one. Does the 1855 Mississippi description seem appropriate?







    Second is what I believe to be a French bayonet, possibly a Model 1842 saber bayonet. The forte is marked 1851 and the cross guard is engraved with regimental markings I am unable to decode. Again, there is no scabbard. Any thoughts on its true origins?







    Bayonets are not a huge draw for me, but there are are few patterns I would like to add to my collection when funds permit. Above all other patterns, I would be especially keen to add an Elcho bayonet to my collection. I also like the yataghan pattern British bayonets and would gladly add a few to my collection at some point.

    Please add to the thread with thoughts, photos, or questions!

    Thank you,
    Jonathan

    This is the first time in 15 years of looking that I have run across a match to a Civil War saber bayonet that originally belonged to my great grandfather (23rd Ohio). It is an exact match to what you called a Model 1842. I have been told by at least one government historian that it fit a Colt revolving rifle but am somewhat skeptical. Do you have any more info on this particular bayonet?
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  12. #87
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    The first bayonet pictured with S&K and a second thin fuller is described as a 1855 Colt revolving rifle bayonet by Janzens. I have seen several sell on ebay over the years all without scabbard.

  13. #88
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    This is a french 1842 bayonet, has the French scabbard frog attachment. Other similar 1842 looking bayonets were made in Germany for the US Civil War. The US was sold tons of second class arms from Europe, a good way to dispose of them.
    The rifled mini was considered the best of the time along with any breech loaders.

  14. #89
    Both of my bayonets were identified by Shawn Gibson:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Gibson View Post
    First of all, What a wonderful thread. I'm the President of the Society of American Bayonet Collectors, so this thread caught my eye as soon as I joined the forum.

    The first bayonet is a CW import. These have been badly misidentified in all of the early bayonet texts. They are made in Germany to fit a minie rifle that was being made in Liege for Brazil. They were redirected to the US during our CW. I'm sure there is a way to tell by the markings if your bayonet was actually used in Brazil or in the US, but I haven't figured it our yet. These are most often listed as Sea Service Enfields. (not at all correct).

    The second bayonet is identified by Calamandrei as a Napolean Bersaglieri bayonet. What confuses me about this is the regimental marking on the crossguard. As someone pointed out it looks a bit like German unit markings, but it is not. It is appears to be Danish or Norwegian. I've not seen Italian markings like this at all. It needs a bit of research, a nice mystery.

  15. #90
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    Good to know, as I have the same pattern as the first one shown. My last post referred to Daves bayonet at the bottom of the your other 2 pictured.
    I had no idea what your second one was, the markings are different than what I have seen and the muzzle ring finnial has a unique shape.

  16. #91
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    Sword Bayonets

    Through the years I have picked up an assortment of bayonets, some to fit my rifles, and some just because they were there.
    I will add a few photos of some of them that fit this catagory.
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  17. #92
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    Here are a few more.
    Roy
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  18. #93
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    And yet a few more.
    Roy
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  19. #94
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    I have lots more but will make this the last for tonight.
    Roy
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  20. #95
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    a good reference you would like is the book "Bayonets of the Remington Cartridge Period" by Jerry L. Janzen.
    Covers different countries, scabbards and markings. Has more info than many other bayonet books.

  21. #96
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    Thanks Will, I have a few books on Bayonets, but really haven't got around to making a list and indentifying them. Counting both long and short bayonets, I probably have close to about 70 from all nations. I have 8 Japanese bayonets varying fron very nice to a very crude last ditch production with a wood scabbard wrapped with twine. Just in bayonets for the Number 4 Mk I Enfield, I think I have about 5 different ones from round spike, through cruciform spike, to blade. When I was young (many moons ago) most gun shops had wooden barrels by the door full of bayonets for $1.00 each, your choice. As I have said, when I get a rifle, I always try to get the proper bayonet, and sometimes it has worked in reverse. As you can see from the photos, most of the bayonets are just as I got them. When I finish with my swords, both with their proper ID, and History as far as I know it, I will start on the bayonets.
    Here are a few more photos.
    Roy
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  22. #97
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    Another batch.
    Roy
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  23. #98
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    And again. The last photo is of some of my German dress bayonets, along with SA,and SS daggers in a wall display. If anyone is interested in the German Dress Bayonets, I think I have 7 or 8 which I could photo separately. These are not Sword bayonets, as is what this thread is about.
    Roy
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